Furnace Cleaning

So, I asked this contractor how much a TANKLESS water heater would cost. He said $3,200. (I could buy my current 11/2 year old rented "tanK" for $950.) Why would I want to pay an extra $2,250? (there is a federal tax credit of $330 to mitigate the cost a little bit).
Here's a thought relating to buying not renting. Back when I bought my 60gal tank the rental I saved equalled my upfront cost in just five years; after that it was free. The rental I had Hydro take away when I bought the house was 20yrs old. The previous owners coulda bought four tanks for what they'd paid in rent. How long do you intend to pay rental on that tank, and what are you getting for the money you're giving the utility every month?

As for the tankless vs. paying to keep a whole tank of water piping hot and instantly ready for showers, dishes and laundry all day when everyone's at work or school, and all night when everybody's tucked up in bed, look at your use patterns. Most of the time you turn the hot tap, isn't it just for a hand or face wash? And down in the basement a whole 40-60 gallon heater's cycling on and off a coupla times an hour to give you that bit of warm water. You're giving the utility money to heat all that water you're not using 24x365.

That tankless heater will give you the only useful output either system gives—hot water when you want to use it. But you won't be paying uselessly for waste.

You do the numbers, but given that energy prices are going up, as more and more folks compete for ever more expensive sources, I'd look at what places where energy has always cost more than here. There's a reason those tankless jobs are European imports. Makes them expensive, but not stupid.

Your question really should'nt have been: Why do I go tankless? It shoulda been: When?
 
Tankless water heaters save about $70 - $100/year in hot water costs yet cost about $2000 more than conventional tank types. This translates into a 20 to 30 year pay back, i.e., about the same or longer than the usefull life of a tankless water heater. To me the economics don't justify the expense at this time. If the tankless types came down in price to say $1000 more than a conventional type I would buy one. The same reasoning would apply if natural gas prices went up further. I think both of these things will happen in the future so I see a tankless in my future but not right now.
 
Here's what Consumers Report has to say about tankless

Thanks. Consumers Report calls a spade a bloody shovel. Tankless water heaters is just more bullshit from the heating/cooling mafia.:mad:

Oh, the heating/cooling guy will probably also tell you that your tankless needs an annual inspection and cleaning at $100 a visit.
 
Tankless water heaters
They're efficient but not necessarily economical

Best to wait until prices drop which is bound to happen when manufacturing volumes increase.
That 'necessary yearly service' also is a big negative for tankless. water heaters.
 
So, I asked this contractor how much a TANKLESS water heater would cost. He said $3,200. (I could buy my current 11/2 year old rented "tanK" for $950.) Why would I want to pay an extra $2,250? (there is a federal tax credit of $330 to mitigate the cost a little bit).

You can buy a conventional hot water tank at Home Depot for $500 and change.

I bought my former Enbridge Rental way back in 2000 when I did the math and saw what a complete rip off it was. I remember at the time getting into a real battle with them over what they wanted for me to buy them out. I took it up with gov't and Enbridge cut their asking price in half.

Never ever rent a hot water tank.
 
BTW,

I am curious to know the life span of a conventional hot water tank in the City of Toronto?
 
I came that close to going tankless and then I looked at the warranty or lack of. Anyone who only warranties that kind of consumer item for one year is expecting trouble and fixing it will be expensive for you. Unless their backing them better now it's more waiting for me. The time will come, after the cost of oil or gas goes up sky high.
 
I came that close to going tankless and then I looked at the warranty or lack of.

Looks like a couple of major concerns going tankless.

1) Extremely high initial capital outlay (plus another hole in your wall) which will take 22 years to recover through gas efficiency when the life of a tankless is 20 years.
2) Lack of a proper warranty.
 
My last conventional hot water tank was January 1991 to March 2008 (17 years) which I was told is the normal life span in Toronto.

That's a good life span, although you probably didn't have a really efficient tank for the last 5 years. I was told to expect 10-12 years.

It was interesting that I had a visitor to my door, who I initially that was one of those contract sales guys and he wanted me to check how old my water heater was. if it was > 4 years, I would be getting a more efficient one given to me. As I rent mine, this was a plausible story, but I didn't let him see the tank or the bill. I knew I only had the tank for 2 years and so didn't qualify. I said bye and closed the door.

Anyone else had this visit? Is it a new twist on the contract sales con or just a way of seeing inside you house for a future visit from people unkown.
 
It was interesting that I had a visitor to my door,

I hate it when strangers (or even friends) show up at the front door unannouced. One time these two guys wanted to sell me an alarm system. I said no, they would not be allowed to enter my house or garage.
 
That's a good life span, although you probably didn't have a really efficient tank for the last 5 years. I was told to expect 10-12 years.

It was interesting that I had a visitor to my door, who I initially that was one of those contract sales guys and he wanted me to check how old my water heater was. if it was > 4 years, I would be getting a more efficient one given to me. As I rent mine, this was a plausible story, but I didn't let him see the tank or the bill. I knew I only had the tank for 2 years and so didn't qualify. I said bye and closed the door.

Anyone else had this visit? Is it a new twist on the contract sales con or just a way of seeing inside you house for a future visit from people unkown.

Here;s an article in today's Toronto Star about just that!:
http://www.thestar.com/business/article/701345
 
Here;s an article in today's Toronto Star about just that!

There should be a law prohibiting unsolicited sales people showing up at your front door. I absolutely hate strangers coming on my property. So, water heaters are another scam. This is in addition to alarm systems and locked in gas contracts.
 
What's kind of funny is that columnist in the Star often intervenes on behalf of consumers who've been sucked in by Direct Energy's door-to-door salespeople, selling energy contract, etc. Good top see that columnist is being objective!
All water heaters are about the same. Conventional tanks (up the chinmey) are about 62% combustion efficiency; power-vent (through the wall with plastic venting) are about 65% combustion efficiency (but require electrical power). There are some high-efficiency storage tank water heaters, around 96% efficient (Consumers Report mentions the Vortex for example). Tankless water heaters are about 80% efficient. Electric waters heaters would be more efficient in that they convert 100% of the electrical energy into heat, but much less effective, in that they're much SLOWER to heat up than gas.

As for those thermal blankets/foil wraps for your water heater - ha ha ha ha! Absolutely useless rip-off items that can often do serious harm if improperly installed. Tanks are very well insulated themselves. But plumbing pipes are not, so pipewraps on copper plumbing (especially the hot side) are a good idea. Pex pipes are even better than copper for slowing heatloss.
 
Electric waters heaters would be more efficient in that they convert 100% of the electrical energy into heat, but much less effective, in that they're much SLOWER to heat up than gas.


Isn't one unit of BTU created by electricity much more money expensive than the same BTU created by gas? This is aside from the fact that it takes forever for electricity to heat the water.
 
Isn't one unit of BTU created by electricity much more money expensive than the same BTU created by gas? This is aside from the fact that it takes forever for electricity to heat the water.

Good question!! Gas is cheaper than electricity, so heating with gas is cheaper. But with gas, how much of the heat of combustion is used to heat the water & how much is wasted go up the chimney....that's where those 62, 65, 80 & 96% efficiency ratings come from......if you have a conventional water heater that goes up the chimney through a metal ventpipe, try touching that vent while the water heater is fired. ****WARNING - DO NOT TOUCH THE METAL VENTPIPE WHEN THE WATERHEATER IS FIRED - YOU WILL BE BADLY BURNED****
That's why electric is considered 100% efficient; virtual no "waste". A BTU is a standard unit of measurement more specific to gas, while electric heat is generally measured in watts, where 1 watt = 3.41 BTUH. You are now smarter than most of jonnieJoytree's classmates!

Gas will likely continue to be the least expensive mode of heating water for some time to come.......solar panels to preheat the water are still pretty pricey. And us HVAC guys need to make a decent living ......