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'Forget Canada I want to live in UK,' girl, 13, abducted by her Brit mom tells judges

alexmst

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'Forget Canada, I want to live in Middlesbrough,' defiant girl, 13, abducted by her British mother tells judges

A schoolgirl has been allowed to stay in Britain instead of moving to live with her father in Canada following a landmark ruling by top family judges.

The 13-year-old, who was 'abducted' from America by her mother in violation of international law, set out her bitter objections to Lord Justice Thorpe and Lady Justice Smith in a private interview, midway through a hearing at London's Civil Appeal Court.

In a unique move, the judges ruled she was old enough to have views of her own and could stay in her native Middlesbrough rather than moving thousands of miles away.

Lady Justice Smith (left) and Lord Justice Thorpe (right) made a landmark ruling so a schoolgirl could stay in Britain instead of moving to live with her father in Canada
The youngster, who cannot be named for legal reasons, earlier penned a letter explaining: 'I never, never in my whole life want to go back there'. :p

Recognising that her roots were in Middlesbrough where she had a large network of friends and family, Lord Justice Thorpe said her attitude had shifted from reluctant resignation to 'hardened' defiance.

On September 21 she made a statement saying she would refuse to travel to Canada.

'Also, another thing: nobody is ever forcing me to get on that plane, so don't think that I will,' she said.

The details of the private meeting were not revealed but Lord Justice Thorpe - one of the nation's most senior family judges - said he had been impressed by the 'cogency of her reasons for rejecting (America) as the future for her'.

'It is highly unusual for this court to meet a child before deciding an appeal,' he said said. 'It is certainly the first time I've ever had that experience.

'But I believe it was just and necessary in this case....'

He said it was becoming ever more crucial to ensure the voices of children were heard in family law cases.

After her legal victory, the jubilant schoolgirl said she had simply told judges she 'would not go back'.

Setting out her reasons for the decision, she said she had felt isolated living in America - where her father had originally gone to find work - and that life was 'just more exciting here'.

And she said the reality of snow covered prairies had come as a grim shock.
'Life's rosier in Middlesbrough,' her mother said.

The keen dancer said both family and friends had been 'incredibly supportive', and were 'rooting for her all the way'.

She and her younger sister arrived back in England late last year, after their mother used the pretext of a theatre visit to take them from their father, and 'abduct them to the United Kingdom', the court heard.

'That was a very foolish step,' the judge observed, adding: 'The bare removal would have been bad enough, but the elements of deception which surrounded their removal inevitably further damaged the relationship between the parents, and has had further repercussions since'.

The father, exercising his rights under the Hague Convention which enshrines the international ban on child abduction, in August,secured a High Court order for the return of his daughters to America for their future to be decided there.

Lord Justice Thorpe said he understood the judge's reasons for making that order, but was concerned the children's objections may have been overlooked.

The family courts, he said, had to be 'alive to' the problems of returning children, particularly where one of them is an 'articulate, determined and courageous adolescent' who has made plain her opposition.

Both siblings' return orders were overturned by the court.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-ruling-live-father-Canada.html#ixzz10T0ZBZZB
 

WoodPeckr

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Wonder if she is related to Laddie who always carped .....England Rules!...:p
 

Possum Trot

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Who ever wrote the article seems to use Canada and America interchangeably. Sad to see ho far the Daily Mail has fallen
 

Aardvark154

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I shall not be surprised if this case goes to the new British Supreme Court.

Several details are missing such as whether the parents were married, separated or divorced at the time of the abduction. Also there must have been a court order in the Father's favour in effect in either Canada or the U.S.

Overturning what seems a clear violation of the Hague Convention on the whims of a thirteen year old - Holy Cow!
 

red

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Nov 13, 2001
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I shall not be surprised if this case goes to the new British Supreme Court.

Several details are missing such as whether the parents were married, separated or divorced at the time of the abduction. Also there must have been a court order in the Father's favour in effect in either Canada or the U.S.

Overturning what seems a clear violation of the Hague Convention on the whims of a thirteen year old - Holy Cow!
are there no consquences for the mother?
 

Aardvark154

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are there no consquences for the mother?
That depends was there a court order in effect before she took the children, and/or was she separated or divorced. Were there criminal charges filed etc. . . .

There are a number of details lacking from the article.
 

Huron

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If she wants to stay in the hellhole that is modern Britain, she's more than welcome to it. Probably be pregnant before she turns 18.
 

alexmst

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For those who hate the Mail, here is basically the same story in the Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...Canada-as-Middlesbrough-is-more-exciting.html

Girl persuades judge not to send her back to Canada as Middlesbrough is 'more exciting'

Middlesbrough is not famous for its exotic attractions, but a 13-year-old girl has managed to convince one of the nation’s most senior family judges that it is “more exciting” than the snow-covered prairies of Canada.

The schoolgirl who was “abducted” from her father’s home in Canada by her English mother won the right not to return after telling judges: “I never, never in my whole life want to go back there”.

The 13-year-old made clear her determination to stay in the Teesside town when Lord Justice Thorpe and Lady Justice Smith took the unique step of holding a private interview with her halfway through a hearing at London's Civil Appeal Court.

The “articulate and courageous” girl, who cannot be named for legal reasons, told the judges that she would refuse to get on a plane to America because “it’s just more exciting here” among the steelworks and shipyards of Middlesbrough.

She added that snow had covered the prairies surrounding the family’s Canadian home almost all-year round and she had become lonely and missed the friends and family she had left behind in England.

Lord Justice Thorpe, one of the nation's most senior family judges, ruled that the 13-year-old was old enough to make her own decision about where to live, despite the fact that her mother had broken international law by abducting her.

He said that it was “highly unusual” for a judge to meet child before deciding an appeal but explained that he had been impressed by the “cogency of her reasons for rejecting Canada as the future for her”.

The schoolgirl had earlier written to the judge explaining “why I never, never in my whole life want to go back there” and made a statement on September 21 declaring: “Also, another thing: nobody is ever forcing me to get on that plane, so don’t think that I will”.

The family moved to the Canadian Prairies when the girl’s father went there to find work, but she and her younger sister returned to England last year after their mother used the pretext of a theatre visit vacation to abduct then, the court heard.

“That was a very foolish step,” the judge observed, adding: “The bare removal would have been bad enough, but the elements of deception which surrounded their removal inevitably further damaged the relationship between the parents, and has had further repercussions since”.

The father secured High Court orders for the return of both his daughters to Canada in August, but they were overturned yesterday when Lord Justice Thorpe ruled the girls could stay with their mother in Middlesbrough.

The judge said he understood reasons why the orders had been made but was concerned that the children’s objections had been dismissed too easily.

He said the family courts had to be “alive to” the problems of moving children against their will, particularly in a case involving an “articulate, determined and courageous adolescent” who has made her opposition plain.

The girl greeted the decision with delight. Her family on both sides live in the Middlesbrough area, and the keen dancer said both relatives and friends had been “incredibly supportive”, and were “rooting for her all the way”.

Her mother also responded jubilantly to the ruling. “Life’s rosier in Middlesbrough,” she said.
 

mandrill

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Not a surprising order, for anyone who understands Family Law. The modern view is that defiant 13 year olds are too much of a problem to be moved about against their will. Most family court judges will concede a teenager's wishes, if sufficiently persistently expressed, unless the situation is one of extreme bad parenting or danger.

The only novelty is that the kid's wishes here trumped the Hague Convention and very bad conduct on the part of the Mom, who undoubtedly also brainwashed the child and turned her against her dad. OTOH, the child has a new network of friends in England. It's all a matter of how the judge balanced out the fact situation.

Shame that the bitch mother got "rewarded". But any Family Court Judge will tell you that "it's all about the child" and disciplining the vile, scheming parent is of low priority in Family Court.
 

Aardvark154

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Not a surprising order, for anyone who understands Family Law. The modern view is that defiant 13 year olds are too much of a problem to be moved about against their will. Most family court judges will concede a teenager's wishes, if sufficiently persistently expressed, unless the situation is one of extreme bad parenting or danger.

The only novelty is that the kid's wishes here trumped the Hague Convention and very bad conduct on the part of the Mom, who undoubtedly also brainwashed the child and turned her against her dad. OTOH, the child has a new network of friends in England. It's all a matter of how the judge balanced out the fact situation.

Shame that the bitch mother got "rewarded". But any Family Court Judge will tell you that "it's all about the child" and disciplining the vile, scheming parent is of low priority in Family Court.
Not to argue with my learned friend, but Oagre, I am supprised!

If this was a "should I live in Toronto or Medicine Hat", "Middlesbrough or Askrigg" I would agree. But the Hague Convention and the United Kingdom's treaty obligations are seemingly a bit more than "The best interests of the child" when that is based upon the whims of a child of thirteen. I can only assume that there is much more to the case than the newspapers are reporting.
 

basketcase

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Forgive me for asking this but isn't this issue really whether she wants to live with Mommy vs. Daddy and not about the UK vs. Canada?
 

Aardvark154

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Forgive me for asking this but isn't this issue really whether she wants to live with Mommy vs. Daddy and not about the UK vs. Canada?
This case is a bit more complicated than most (or so it would seem without all the details), but if one party has a court order and the other party abducts the children to a foreign country. NO.

This is the very reason why states around the world agreed to the Hague Convention on Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction.
 

mandrill

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Not to argue with my learned friend, but Oagre, I am supprised!

If this was a "should I live in Toronto or Medicine Hat", "Middlesbrough or Askrigg" I would agree. But the Hague Convention and the United Kingdom's treaty obligations are seemingly a bit more than "The best interests of the child" when that is based upon the whims of a child of thirteen. I can only assume that there is much more to the case than the newspapers are reporting.
Don't think so. Nor must there necessarily be such.
 

alexmst

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Personally I think the judges were flattered that the 13 year old was saying she hated North America and thought England was a vastly better place to live and she would forcibly resist being deported back to Canada. She wasn't going to be living in Belgravia - Middleborough is no great prize lol. The judges thought, hey, if the kid loves it here in England so much, why send her to the colonies lol.

It is sad she was brainwashed against her dad. Divorce is a nasty racket. It is understandable that in a divorce one party may want to move to another state or country to 'start over' and not be reminded of old haunts, etc. It would be a pain to have to stay in the town after a divorce because of a shared custody order, or visitation rights. The parent who wants full custody would think "better if I just have the kids and live in country X and if the ex wants to visit once a year on vacation and have the kids for a weekend, ok." Japan says in divorce the kids go with the mother and if she wants to relocate, that is her right. I recall there were/are countries that give the kids to the father. When I ws a kid I recall from divorced kids at school that kids tended to live with one parent. This co-custody thing is more modern and adds confusion to the mix, but basically is there to protect the rights of both parents so one (usually the guy) isn't left high and dry.

In this case the mother wanted to take the child to the UK to live with her, so rather than deal with co-custody she just said she was going on a vacation with the kid and never came back
 

mandrill

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The judges seemed to be influenced by the fact that the home in Canada was isolated and the situation there seemed a little extreme and lonely whereas the kid seemed very social and outgoing and had lots of friends in the UK town. There was probably also a child social worker's report which was left out of the narrative by the reporter.
 

danmand

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Nov 28, 2003
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Life is pretty tough for immigrants to Canada who has no family and friends here. Canadians, although the best people in the world:rolleyes:, are not the most welcoming and warm people. I can just imagine a 13 year old without family and friends living in a remote prarie location.
 

alexmst

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Well partly it boils down to Hague Convention vs desire of the specific kid. Should the International Convention always triumph and to heck with what one kid wants in one specific case, or can/should the desire of the kid overturn the dictates of the Convention? There are advantages and disadvantages to both approaches.
 

Scarey

Well-known member
I think if this ruling stands, as more people learn about it you'll see more"Theatre trips" then you can shake a stick at.When one parent is not aware of the others true intentions concerning the transportation of the child.It's abduction.Period.

This child seems a bit spoiled and very brainwashed to been taught to dislike an entire country.She'll be 18 someday and probaby be completely befuddled why she has zero relationship with her father when her mother doesn't have the shine to her she does now.Her mother seems like a manipulative, sneaky bitch who is using her child in a martial powerplay.

Judges today DO put alot of emphasis on what the child wants.....which is silly.....a child wants everything their way whether it's good for them or not.Giving it to them is not necessarily to their benefit.Kids grow up and learn how their parents behaved when they were children.I'd like to hear the Dad's point of view.
 

alexmst

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