Discreet Dolls

Ford abandons garbage privatization for the East end. Gonna go politicking instead.

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,474
12
38
According to this article The City's gonna have to pay the inflated costs of city-collected garbage East of Yonge, until after Rob wins a second term two years from now. Given that the obvious cost-cutting remedy (privatization) for West of Yonge was passed with a comfy margin, it seems needless waste not to proceed with the other half of the City as soon as the West side has proven the case. Not that the pro-privatization bunch ever suggested it was any sort of trial. Why is tghe Mayor now attaching This Good Thing to his personal re-election? Does he already know he won't have anything else worth running on?

Or were the privatization savings imaginary?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Anbarandy

Bitter House****
Apr 27, 2006
11,279
3,918
113
According to this article The City's gonna have to pay the inflated costs of city-collected garbage East of Yonge, until after Rob wins a second term two years from now. Given that the obvious cost-cutting remedy (privatization) for West of Yonge was passed with a comfy margin, it seems needless waste not to proceed with the other half of the City as soon as the West side has proven the case. Not that the pro-privatization bunch ever suggested it was any sort of trial. Why is tghe Mayor now attaching This Good Thing to his personal re-election? Does he already know he won't have anything else worth running on?

Or were the privatization savings imaginary?
The savings are definitely not what they were promoted to be.

The winning bidder will be hard pressed to fulfiill the terms of the contract.

GFL will have the option to charge extra to pick-up clear overflow garbage in clear plastic bags, if it decides not to.....city workers will.

Why would 'he' wait 2 1/2 years to outsource the 'pot of gold' east of Yonge St. If it were such a slam dunk gravy train item you'd think he act lickity-split.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
24,071
4,011
113
The way things are going for Ford, he'd probably lose that vote. (Ironic because he won the last one). But given what happened with respect to contracting out office cleaning staff (City Council figures it right to pay office cleaners 75 grand a year), I guess Ford figures why bother.

Ford may be a boor, but he's right about cutting the size of the City's payroll.

There are not too many cities that I can think of that employ people to collect garbage. (Why should they?)

Even if there is NO cost savings (which will not be the case as it will save millions), we won't have to put up with any more strikes in which mountains of festering rotting stinking garbage are allowed to accumulate in residential neighbourhoods.
 

Anbarandy

Bitter House****
Apr 27, 2006
11,279
3,918
113
The way things are going for Ford, he'd probably lose that vote. (Ironic because he won the last one). But given what happened with respect to contracting out office cleaning staff (City Council figures it right to pay office cleaners 75 grand a year), I guess Ford figures why bother.

Ford may be a boor, but he's right about cutting the size of the City's payroll.

There are not too many cities that I can think of that employ people to collect garbage. (Why should they?)

Even if there is NO cost savings (which will not be the case as it will save millions), we won't have to put up with any more strikes in which mountains of festering rotting stinking garbage are allowed to accumulate in residential neighbourhoods.
1) Yes, he'd lose that vote.
2) You are just making up dollar numbers regarding cleaners yearly earnings. Yes, yes you are. Once again, you are not employed by the city and thus you are just guessing at numbers and/or engaging in hearsay.
3) Why must we cut the size of the city payroll? Are we running deficits? Are you property taxes too high compared to the surrounding regions? Are we in a fiscsal doomsday?
4) Think, think....there are many cities that still have their own solid waste collection services. Why should cities maintain their own public solid waste service? Because it has proven to be the most cost-effective delivery mode when there are public and private competitors involved. Check out the Hamilton model.
5) GFL cost savings are already known to be exaggerated. Of course private contractors never have workers who engage in job actions and strikes.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
24,071
4,011
113
We have a massive debt and we need to pay it back. Currently debt service interest payments drain more money from the budget than everything else, except the cops and the TTC. That is not sustainable. Almost all of that debt was grown under by David Miller and his band of merry champagne socialists.

I know you won't believe me, but will you believe that famous leftwing publication - The Toronto Star

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1015702--toronto-debt-4-4b-and-rising



Cities should not be in the garbage collection business period.

The tendering process for garbage collection was open to all. CUPE could have bid on it just like any other contractor, but they did not because they knew that they could not win.

And if GFL (or whoever) were to go on strike, then terminate the contract and hire someone else.

As far as I am aware, Etobicoke garbage collection has never been suspended due to labour actions since it was contracted out more than a decade ago. In that time, I have seen the City of Toronto garbage collectors go on strike twice.

In the time that David Miller was mayor, he increased the pay-roll at city hall by 5,000 jobs. That needs to be rolled back to more sustainable levels. There is no justification for such excess.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
24,071
4,011
113
Here's my favourite comparison.....

Chicago

population = 2.9 million.

Operating budget = 6.5 billion

Number of Employees = 37,000


Toronto

population = 2.6 million

Operating Budget = 9.2 billion

Number of Employees = 53,000


That is whacked.
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
79,957
8
0
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
is.gd
According to this article The City's gonna have to pay the inflated costs of city-collected garbage East of Yonge, until after Rob wins a second term two years from now. Given that the obvious cost-cutting remedy (privatization) for West of Yonge was passed with a comfy margin, it seems needless waste not to proceed with the other half of the City as soon as the West side has proven the case. Not that the pro-privatization bunch ever suggested it was any sort of trial. Why is tghe Mayor now attaching This Good Thing to his personal re-election? Does he already know he won't have anything else worth running on?

Or were the privatization savings imaginary?
Realistically, the answer is that the Mayor no longer controls council and can no longer implement any of his agenda. He's hoping that a new mandate at the polls will allow him to make progress again.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,474
12
38
The way things are going for Ford, he'd probably lose that vote. (Ironic because he won the last one). But given what happened with respect to contracting out office cleaning staff (City Council figures it right to pay office cleaners 75 grand a year), I guess Ford figures why bother.

Ford may be a boor, but he's right about cutting the size of the City's payroll.

There are not too many cities that I can think of that employ people to collect garbage. (Why should they?)

Even if there is NO cost savings (which will not be the case as it will save millions), we won't have to put up with any more strikes in which mountains of festering rotting stinking garbage are allowed to accumulate in residential neighbourhoods.
Last first: Nothing I'm aware of limits the right of the contractor's employees to unionize or strike. The City's only 'protection' from that is the length of time the process would take, but a decently run enterprise paying fair wages for the work should give us little to fear. Until some arbitrary cost-cutter tries to 'manage' by diktat.

The City's responsibility is to ensure that garbage is collected, because we need a healthy sanitary environment. (A new thread about who should pay for taking away your old sofa or stove might turn up some interesting thoughts, though) The only thing new since Ford is that the City is now employing one corporate person, which will be taking a profit, as well as paying the actual trash collectors that we cannot do without. But only for half the City. The logic of that is: "City managers aren't as good as yours; they can't make the deals your guys do. Picking up the trash? Anyone can do that".

Why that applies for only half the City, until there's an election almost three years from now is my question. We'll see if performance is maintained by the new workforce; likewise their non-union status. But the City is still paying people to collect garbage. GFL's managers and owners won't be doing it. Who cares? If GFL's a good deal, why aren't we now moving to get the same deal east of Yonge. Is private business too slow to bid? Does the City really have that kinda money to piss away?

Unanswered here is why connect the delay East of Yonge to the election in 2014, without the slightest pretense of any civic benefit, but only to serve Rob's personal re-election? Who is opposed to moving eastwards? What it amounts to is: Privatizing's good. But I won't even try to work with the Council that already voted for privatizing in order to get that good soonest and largest across the City. Instead I'll pout for 2½ years, then pretend we need a Crusade to make it happen because of the implacable opposition of Council. Rob's asking us to buy him a second term by paying inflated costs for garbage collection.

So that City Garbage GravyTrain continues to career down the greavy-greased tracks with no one at the controls. Of course there's also the 'whoops' of the $39million the Solid Waste Department earned last year, before Rob and Council sold half to GFL Rob's being silent about that windfall.

Could GFL have paid for a cash cow with magic beans? We'll have a coupla years to see, unless Rob rearranges the books so the remaining east-side half of that surplus isn't detectable. Perish the thought!
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,474
12
38
Two thread on Ford and Garbage, short attention span?
Too late now. Mea culpa.

Too late then, when I posted without seeing Anabarandy's. Anyway Rob's big enough for two threads, and the way people whined about dealing with their own trash when the strike was on, garbage clearly merits lotsa attention. Although Rob's saying not by him. He's not even gonna try.
 

luvzgirlz

Member
May 13, 2006
165
0
16
The city bought a fleet of garbage trucks, virtually all of which are sitting and collecting dust due to Ford's privatization scheme. If they do sell them to a private company it's going to be for ten cents on the dollar to what they paid for them. This may be driving the reluctance to continue this east of Yonge...
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,474
12
38
Realistically, the answer is that the Mayor no longer controls council and can no longer implement any of his agenda. He's hoping that a new mandate at the polls will allow him to make progress again.
Kinda sounds like three years of sandbox-sulking to me. Whatever happened to the concept that in a democracy people vote for good ideas and programs not for the name attached? Or the concept that a Mayor should lead, and a worthy Mayor leads even a fractious Council? Not that this Council has ever expressed anything but majority support for privatization, so 'fractious' may be true, but so far, 'opposing' on this topic is all in Rob's mind. And he's sulking over there in the corner, doing nothing on the file, waiting for Mommy to punish the mean kids.

When he does trot out that grievance three years on, let's hope even his base asks, "But how did you try to get them to play your way?"
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
40,084
1
0
Too late now. Mea culpa.

Too late then, when I posted without seeing Anabarandy's. Anyway Rob's big enough for two threads, and the way people whined about dealing with their own trash when the strike was on, garbage clearly merits lotsa attention. Although Rob's saying not by him. He's not even gonna try.
Fair enough, we've all done it. Just remember any news that will puts Ford in bad light, even in the tiniest way will be posted by AB.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
24,071
4,011
113
Last first: Nothing I'm aware of limits the right of the contractor's employees to unionize or strike. The City's only 'protection' from that is the length of time the process would take, but a decently run enterprise paying fair wages for the work should give us little to fear. Until some arbitrary cost-cutter tries to 'manage' by diktat.

The City's responsibility is to ensure that garbage is collected, because we need a healthy sanitary environment. (A new thread about who should pay for taking away your old sofa or stove might turn up some interesting thoughts, though) The only thing new since Ford is that the City is now employing one corporate person, which will be taking a profit, as well as paying the actual trash collectors that we cannot do without. But only for half the City. The logic of that is: "City managers aren't as good as yours; they can't make the deals your guys do. Picking up the trash? Anyone can do that".

Why that applies for only half the City, until there's an election almost three years from now is my question. We'll see if performance is maintained by the new workforce; likewise their non-union status. But the City is still paying people to collect garbage. GFL's managers and owners won't be doing it. Who cares? If GFL's a good deal, why aren't we now moving to get the same deal east of Yonge. Is private business too slow to bid? Does the City really have that kinda money to piss away?

Unanswered here is why connect the delay East of Yonge to the election in 2014, without the slightest pretense of any civic benefit, but only to serve Rob's personal re-election? Who is opposed to moving eastwards? What it amounts to is: Privatizing's good. But I won't even try to work with the Council that already voted for privatizing in order to get that good soonest and largest across the City. Instead I'll pout for 2½ years, then pretend we need a Crusade to make it happen because of the implacable opposition of Council. Rob's asking us to buy him a second term by paying inflated costs for garbage collection.

So that City Garbage GravyTrain continues to career down the greavy-greased tracks with no one at the controls. Of course there's also the 'whoops' of the $39million the Solid Waste Department earned last year, before Rob and Council sold half to GFL Rob's being silent about that windfall.

Could GFL have paid for a cash cow with magic beans? We'll have a coupla years to see, unless Rob rearranges the books so the remaining east-side half of that surplus isn't detectable. Perish the thought!
GFL will save the city money. I am confident of that.

Etobicoke has proven that.

Ever seen garbage collection in Etobicoke? One truck, one guy. He drives the truck, then he gets out and loads the truck. He gets paid 18 bucks an hour. Contrast to the City of Toronto - 2 guys minimum, sometimes 3. They get paid 26 bucks an hour, and a raft of bennefits that make you sick (including the right to bank unused sick days and get a payout upon retirement to a more than generous pension.)

Add to that no threat of strikes, and even if there were strikes, the City could simply contract out to someone else in no time flat. Problem solved. Or, if they do need temporary dumps, they clean them on a daily basis with other Contractors. The threat of another dirty stinking filthy festering garbage strike in July is history.

The City of Toronto should not be collecting garbage, or cleaning offices, or a whack of other things that can be handled by the private sector far more cheaply (yes, it's cheaper).

BTW, Solid Waste Earnings are based on what the City of Toronto Transfer Stations charge to dispose of garbage. As far as I am aware, the City will continue to operate the Transfer Stations. The only thing being contracted out is the collection of the garbage.

The one thing I AM WONDERING about is how this contract to collect garbage managed to circumvent the city of Toronto's infamouse left wing control called "The Fair Wage Office" which mandates that Contractors who want to work for the city must pay Labourers $24.75 an hour. (Mind you this seems to be aimed at Construction, but still, how does it apply to construction, but not to garbage collection??)
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
79,957
8
0
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
is.gd
Kinda sounds like three years of sandbox-sulking to me. Whatever happened to the concept that in a democracy people vote for good ideas and programs not for the name attached? Or the concept that a Mayor should lead, and a worthy Mayor leads even a fractious Council? Not that this Council has ever expressed anything but majority support for privatization, so 'fractious' may be true, but so far, 'opposing' on this topic is all in Rob's mind. And he's sulking over there in the corner, doing nothing on the file, waiting for Mommy to punish the mean kids.

When he does trot out that grievance three years on, let's hope even his base asks, "But how did you try to get them to play your way?"
To be fair, the new collection system he did implement isn't even running yet. If you wanted to wait and see whether it's realizing the expected benefits, it probably will take about until the next election to see how it's working.

But it's also clear that he has failed to lead this council and in fact has made enemies there.
 

Anbarandy

Bitter House****
Apr 27, 2006
11,279
3,918
113
The city bought a fleet of garbage trucks, virtually all of which are sitting and collecting dust due to Ford's privatization scheme. If they do sell them to a private company it's going to be for ten cents on the dollar to what they paid for them. This may be driving the reluctance to continue this east of Yonge...
Let's not forget the tens of millions the city spent to upgrade a 'yard' that guess what, GFL doesn't want.

Let's not forget 'times 2': Paying city managers and supervisors(garbage monitors) to monitor the GFL managers and superviosors(monitors).
 

Anbarandy

Bitter House****
Apr 27, 2006
11,279
3,918
113
To be fair, the new collection system he did implement isn't even running yet. If you wanted to wait and see whether it's realizing the expected benefits, it probably will take about until the next election to see how it's working.

But it's also clear that he has failed to lead this council and in fact has made enemies there.
Basically a smokescreen for:

He has no no hope in hell now both politically and through any objective and rational analysis of contracting out the entirety of the city's solid waste collection service.
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
40,084
1
0
Basically a smokescreen for:

He has no no hope in hell now both politically and through any objective and rational analysis of contracting out the entirety of the city's solid waste collection service.
This summary coming to you from someone who hasn't a balanced viewpoint of Ford and who should not use the word rational in any sentence.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,474
12
38
To be fair, the new collection system he did implement isn't even running yet. If you wanted to wait and see whether it's realizing the expected benefits, it probably will take about until the next election to see how it's working.

But it's also clear that he has failed to lead this council and in fact has made enemies there.
All of which would be reasonable things to have said now, or in the debate when the Left Side of TO got the money-saving, improved private service. But I heard nothing about three year test periods back then, and no one's reporting HizWorship came up with that better rationale when he announced the gravy train union contract would run three more years on the East Side. Longer if he isn't re-elected then.

And that's the real message, he needs to invent an issue, and he thinks this phony one will do. I guess actually doing the job never occurred to him.

Footnote: The last thing we need is another garbage collection thread, but we have been repeatedly told here and on the floor of Council that Etobicoke's experience is all the test bed we need. Either that's so and the East phase should proceed promptly, or we told a further lengthy test and evaluation is vital lest we make the same mistake East of Yonge that we optimistically got into on the West side.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
24,071
4,011
113
Basically a smokescreen for:

He has no no hope in hell now both politically and through any objective and rational analysis of contracting out the entirety of the city's solid waste collection service.
Here's the thing.....

City run garbage collection is gone and it's not coming back.
 
Ashley Madison
Toronto Escorts