Fired Without Cause

fuji said:
He certainly COULD do that, but he has some options:

1. Delete the file. Not much they can do about that and I guess the OP likely doesn't feel he owes them good will

2. Tell them it is going to take some effort to collect their data ads deliver it to them, and that his going rate for that work is $500/hr, paid in advance. If they pay he will be happy to tidy up the file and sit down with someone to show them how to use it.

Certainly it is their information and he cannot make use of it for his own purposes, but he doesn't have to work for free either.
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Fuji, I agree with you. No one works for nothing. He got let go, even if the employer may have been in their own rights to let him go, he was terminated. What does he owe them? Again, if there was an agreement that the list belongs to the employer, then he has to give it to them. Otherwise, the employer is SOL.
 
Keebler Elf said:
Severance and termination pay (payment-in-lieu of notice) are two separate things. The OP got termination pay. He very likely didn't qualify for severance pay (need 5+ years of service and 50+ employees working there).

Termination pay is set under the Employment Standards Act at 1 week of pay per year of service up to 8 weeks pay. There is no negotiation for this. They can give you more out of the goodness of their hearts but they are legally obligated to give you this at a minimum if they are terminating your employment without notice. If they decide to give you actual notice (the same amount of time), they are required to give you nothing other than your regular pay. They call this working through your notice of termination. Normally employers don't want to do that because of the risk of you being an asshole when you know your job is coming to an end so employers usually just pay it out and you leave immediately. That said, I've seen employers force employees to work through their notice as a big "fuck you" to a troublesome employee. They actually didn't care if the person did any work or not, just the fact they had to work every day to get the money was satisfaction enough.

Termination pay is for termination without cause. If you're terminated for cause, you get nada, zip, zilch, bupkiss. You also won't be entitled to severance pay (if it was applicable in the first place).

It's normally termination for cause or an employer not giving enough severance (which is much less defined and can vary but in general is around 1 month per year of service up to 2 years pay) that attracts civil litigation. That's where there is some negotiation as the employer is weighing the risk of a court case vs. what it will take to make you fuck off and die. But the employee has to pay his own legal fees upfront so there's a definitive disincentive for the employee as well.

From what I can tell, and without knowing what the employee was paid vs. his rate of pay and how long he worked, it sounds like the employer did the right thing in this case.
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Was through this recently and you are partially correct; the EA spells out termination pay etc.

There is another piece, which is called Common Law, similar to a marriage where the former employer is responsible for you basically until you find a similarly paid position. My ex-employer owed me 3 weeks under EA, offered me 6 weeks, but took it to a lawyer and ended up paying me 18 weeks severance after 26 months of employment. It all depends on your position, age, geography etc.

I would suggest in this case, be the bigger person, just give it back to them.
 
bigshot said:
I believe that the answer to your question is due in large part to the OPs description of the previous employer. This likely coloured the attitude of many of those who responded. We expect more consideration towards the employees if they are a charity, and the "ghetto" comment did not put them in a good light: To be honest, the charity is a bit shady as they sometimes can be. Some of the money raised does not go towards the cause despite claiming 100% of it does.
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That is what it is to me. Personally I would have no problem handing it over. If it was me, I would. But it would appear from his post that he doesn't want to hand it over. Maybe it requires some additional work to gather it all up. We only have his word.

He asked these questions - am I obligated to answer them or give anything back? Is there any legal repercussions for ignoring them?

People gave answers. I am not here to judge or preach about what someone else should or shouldn't do. I just gave answers to his questions.
 
shakenbake said:
Oh, but it is, and legal experts would beg to differ with you .....
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Please re-read what I said. Restated: It's irrelevant what the employment contract said. I would willingly provide the charity a copy of the all files at my earliest convenience, I would request they confirm that they can open the files without errors, then I would tell them I'm going to delete the files off my computer and do so. I would answer any questions they had, as long as they didn't take advantage of me.

I see this approach as a win-win. I'm true to my personal code, I've generated good karma and who knows .... maybe someone at the charity will remember my professionalism and future mutual benefit may be found. Only thing it will cost me is a few minutes of my time.

I'm not a lawyer, so I won't provide legal advice. LOL, like so many other people here like to do.
 
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Promo said:
Please re-read what I said. Restated: It's irrelevant what the employment contract said. I would willingly provide the charity a copy of the all files at my earliest convenience, I would request they confirm that they can open the files without errors, then I would tell them I'm going to delete the files off my computer and do so. I would answer any questions they had, as long as they didn't take advantage of me.

I see this approach as a win-win. I'm true to my personal code, I've generated good karma and who knows .... maybe someone at the charity will remember my professionalism and future mutual benefit may be found. Only thing it will cost me is a few minutes of my time.

I'm not a lawyer, so I won't provide legal advice. LOL, like so many other people here like to do.
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I would do this if I was let go for lack of funding or because my department was eliminated, as I said, I assume the best of people and show good will by default.

But that changes if you fuck me over. If you play hardball with me, I won't throw you a slow pitch either.
 
give them the file. Its a charity org. and as they say, u don't want to burn any bridges
 
Promo said:
Please re-read what I said. Restated: It's irrelevant what the employment contract said. I would willingly provide the charity a copy of the all files at my earliest convenience, I would request they confirm that they can open the files without errors, then I would tell them I'm going to delete the files off my computer and do so. I would answer any questions they had, as long as they didn't take advantage of me.

I see this approach as a win-win. I'm true to my personal code, I've generated good karma and who knows .... maybe someone at the charity will remember my professionalism and future mutual benefit may be found. Only thing it will cost me is a few minutes of my time.

I'm not a lawyer, so I won't provide legal advice. LOL, like so many other people here like to do.
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Maybe not such a charitable organisation when they fucked over the OP at the time he needed time to write his exams. He asked them in advance, and did not leave them hanging, I am assuming. Karma? What karma for an organisation that fucks people over for getting education and training? If, on the other hand, he did something wrong to them or put them in a bad situation, I would agree with you. I am old and have been fucked enough by bad employers. So, pardon me for my apparent shitty attitude. I have also been treated very well by my last employer, I might add, and sent business along their way for gratitude.
 
Keebler Elf said:
...

p.s., no charity gives 100% of the money they take in to their cause. There are always administration costs....
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Not always. Sleeping Children Around the World for example has all their administration including traveling overseas done by volunteers.

As for the topic, sounds like a case of sour grapes for me. The OP has no legal use for the information so he might as well give it to the company.
 
fuji said:
I would do this if I was let go for lack of funding or because my department was eliminated, as I said, I assume the best of people and show good will by default.

But that changes if you fuck me over. If you play hardball with me, I won't throw you a slow pitch either.
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How was he fucked over? He was a part time employee unable to work the hours and he was treated as the law requires. Might not be the most empathetic move on their part but they have work that needs to be done and would have to hire to replace him for that time. Makes no sense to hire and train a new person just for the few busiest weeks the OP was unable to work and then have to let the replacement go.
 
Mr Bret said:
Now might be a good time to read through those 15 pages to see what conditions you agreed to.

As for the data, I'd get a cheap jump drive and transfer the data to it, then I'd delete it from the laptop.

That way, you can honestly tell them you've deleted it from your laptop and you have a copy just in case you actually do have some legal obligation to return it based on the agreement you never read.
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Got to be careful with employment contracts especially non-disclosures. IP is a very sticky issue these days with people telecommuting or working 100% remotely. OP may want to talk to an employment lawyer and get all of his papers and emails together just in case.
 
Honestly, I'm not trying to screw the charity. I don't agree with everything they do but I get it - they had their needs, I had mine. My only reason for not wanting to hand over the list after the fact is because I know that someone else, potentially my manager, will take the commission from all the donations that get auctioned. I know it's petty but he just rubbed me the wrong way. We didn't have any conflicts and there were no arguments in the office but I'm not exactly fond of the guy even in a professional sense.

Also, it seems like most people continuing the conversation missed my earlier post:
Scarbarian said:
To clarify, this charity doesn't just rely on the auction money. They do other types of fundraising year round, and THAT money is supposed to include staff salaries and overhead costs. This once a year auction event that uses the donations is supposed to be only for the cause but I know for a fact that it's not the case. Some of that money gets paid out in commission to the solicitors. So if I secured a golf package and it was successfully auctioned off for $200, I'd get a portion of that.

Normally I would've given it back but my main reason for asking and what I didn't want was some chump (or my manager) taking my commission from the three months that I worked. I had some really good stuff - concert tickets, vacation packages, spa treatments, resorts, sporting equipment, hotel stays, restaurants, etc all of which could amount to a nice sizable commission. Also, based on previous data from past auctions, some items would magically have no bids and they're just gone. I have a feeling some of the senior staff take one or two of the good stuff for themselves. Can't be confirmed but I can't imagine how a $300 valued dinner cruise can simply disappear from the system with no bids.

I also didn't sign this 15 page agreement. It was more like a handbook, there's no signature involved. They gave it to me as a way to follow rules. It was at my desk so I can't read it now. The only thing I signed was the form to get direct deposit on my payment.
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Scarbarian said:
Honestly, I'm not trying to screw the charity. I don't agree with everything they do but I get it - they had their needs, I had mine. My only reason for not wanting to hand over the list after the fact is because I know that someone else, potentially my manager, will take the commission from all the donations that get auctioned. I know it's petty but he just rubbed me the wrong way. We didn't have any conflicts and there were no arguments in the office but I'm not exactly fond of the guy even in a professional sense.

Also, it seems like most people continuing the conversation missed my earlier post:
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Then just tell them you deleted the data and no longer have it.
 
Give the info to the CRA. If your suspicions are true, then I am sure the CRA would like to see that kind of information and that is why this "charity" wants the information back. They don't want the CRA to come in and shut them down, ruining their bottom line.
 
dirkd101 said:
Give the info to the CRA. If your suspicions are true, then I am sure the CRA would like to see that kind of information and that is why this "charity" wants the information back. They don't want the CRA to come in and shut them down, ruining their bottom line.
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This is an interesting suggestion.

I know CRA is responsible for registering charities in Canada, but does CRA also audit how the charities spend their money, internal expenses and if all donated money gets on the books? If what Scarbarian says is true (my gut tells me he is being honest) ..... this charity really should be looked at. I donate a modest amount mostly to my 2 favourite charities, but I have given money to the chocolate bar kids until I heard the rumour they were complete scams. Yet these kids still come door-to-door and are at all the malls.
 
basketcase said:
Not always. Sleeping Children Around the World for example has all their administration including traveling overseas done by volunteers.
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What about rent for their offices? Paperclips? Pens? Toilet paper? Website hosting? Phone lines?
Is all of that donated as well.
 
fuji said:
Tell them you have deleted it, as the presence of their unauthorized materials on your personal computer was a security risk.
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What Fuji said. Besides, it's your computer you own rights to that information. Not them. But yeah best to say you burned your hard drive.
 
Promo said:
This is an interesting suggestion.

I know CRA is responsible for registering charities in Canada, but does CRA also audit how the charities spend their money, internal expenses and if all donated money gets on the books? If what Scarbarian says is true (my gut tells me he is being honest) ..... this charity really should be looked at. I donate a modest amount mostly to my 2 favourite charities, but I have given money to the chocolate bar kids until I heard the rumour they were complete scams. Yet these kids still come door-to-door and are at all the malls.
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Because the CRA is responsible for charities and their designation as such, because it is a tax thing, they are therefore responsible for the audit of said "charity", just like they audit the individual. The problem is the books and what they show and what they aren't showing. As far as audits go, they do audit and have been auditing more charities after the relationship of charities and terrorism has been linked and they do come across these scam "charities". What our man has is good intel on what kind of money is coming in and where it comes from, albeit a slice of intel, but none the less, a relative gold mine of raw intel.

Big charities like United Way et al, hire outside auditors like KPMG for the sake of transparency, to keep the CRA at bay and keep public confidence up in that they are putting the majority of the monies collected to good use.

And you are correct about the chocolate bar kids. I can't remember the guys name, but he runs this "charity" and Canadian tax law on "charities" state that to be called or designated a "charity" there is a minimum amount of your take, that must be used for said charity. This douche bag gives exactly the minimum, which is a joke btw and takes the rest.
 
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