European Hockey is it the best?

[Kev]

We have all heard that Canadains are not as skilled in comparison to are European counterparts when it comes to the game of hockey. Well why the hell 'again' is it going to be an all North Amercan final? We beat those so called better players on there own larger ice surface.

This time around Canada faces the USA in the World Juniors. If those Europeans are so skilled, why is it them, always left out looking in, when the Gold medal is to be played? Mens, Womens or Juniors. Team Canada also won the Spengler Cup for 2003 over European based clubs.

Did you see the hit Deion Phaneuf had on that Czech player today? Jesus he just rocked him.

GO TEAM CANADA!!! --- Kev

 

[johnnyonthespot]

Well why the hell 'again' is it going to be an all North Amercan final? ... If those Europeans are so skilled, why is it them, always left out looking in, when the Gold medal is to be played?

Okay, I bleed red and white for hockey as much as the next guy, but let's dial it back a bit. No question, Canada's had a great run recently - Olympics, Worlds, possibly this year's juniors.

But the last time the world juniors was an all North American final was in 1997, which was the last time Canada won. Since then, it's looked like this:

'98 - Finland over Russia
'99 - Russia over Canada
'00 - Czech Republic over Russia
'01 - Czech Republic over Finland
'02 - Russia over Canada
'03 - Russia over Canada

What's the common thread? Every year had at least one European team in the final and, in the three years Canada didn't play for gold, they were all-European finals.

So, perspective applied and all that, I will second your final thought - GO CANADA!

 

[Keebler Elf]

Umm, last time I checked the vast majority of teams playing are European. So the fact that most of the teams you listed are European should be expected. Canada can't win 'em all...

 

[Kev]

I would assume that if the other countries are more skilled than you are, then they should be in the finals everytime. The fact that they are not means the expression 'Europeans have more skill' is alot of booha. IMHO --- Kev

 

[johnnyonthespot]

Umm, last time I checked the vast majority of teams playing are European. So the fact that most of the teams you listed are European should be expected. Canada can't win 'em all...

Yes, 8 out of the 10 teams in the tournament are European, but that doesn't have anything to do with the point I was making - apparently unsuccessfully, for at least one person.

The original post asked two questions - one, why was it "again" going to be an all-North American final and, two, why are the Europeans always on the outside looking in when it comes to playing for gold.

The answers are:
1) The last all-North American final was in 1997, so to say it's happening "again" is a little off, and
2) Nine of the last twelve teams that have played for gold in the world juniors have been European, so to say they're always on the outside of the gold medal game is just flat out wrong. In fact, this is only the second time since the world juniors went to a medal round format in 1996 (it was straight round robin previously) that there hasn't been at least one European team in the gold medal game. As a result, I'd say that the Europeans are rarely on the outside looking in. And yes, that stands to reason, as the tournament is 80% European, but it's still true.

As for skill, well ...

 

[Keebler Elf]

Yes, 8 out of the 10 teams in the tournament are European, but that doesn't have anything to do with the point I was making - apparently unsuccessfully, for at least one person.

Hmmm, I must have hit a nerve, hehehe...

 

[johnnyonthespot]

I would assume that if the other countries are more skilled than you are, then they should be in the finals everytime. The fact that they are not means the expression 'Europeans have more skill' is alot of booha. IMHO --- Kev

OK, Kev, let's try this from another angle ...

First, how do you define skill? It's a very individual thing - what I think makes up a skilled hockey player may be very different from how you define it, or Don Cherry, or Pierre Maguire, or anyone else. However, historically, "skilled" in this discussion has generally been a euphemism for "offensively talented". So, the question to consider is, on the whole, are European players more offensively talented than North American players. Well, one way to answer that question would be to look at the NHL scoring leaders so far this year. In fact, the top four in the points race (Kovalchuk, Datsyuk, Lang, and Naslund) are all European. Europeans make up 5 of the top 10, and 14 of the top 25.

Now, I don't have the facts at hand, but I believe that North Americans still make up more than half of the players in the NHL. If that's true, then the fact that Europeans comprise more than half the scoring leaders, while representing less than half the players, might lend some credence to the arguement that, on the whole, they're more offensively talented.

... continued ...

 

[Kev]

johnnyonthespot sorry i should have been more clear i was really including all the different hockey teams that represent Canada, not just the Juniors.

Like the Olympic team 2002,
World Championships 2003,
Spengler Cup 2003,
Juniors 2003/2004, (fingers crossed)
Womens World Championships and Olympics (championships every year since its inseption, Olympics 2002,
and on it goes.

Collectively i believe Canada has a better record against the Europeans than vice versa in the last 5 years. Wouldn't you agree? Yet i still hear that they are more talented than us.

The Europeans do have amazing skill but better than Canada? I think it would be safer to say equal. And whats funny how many of these European players are here in North America honing there skills. Granted that has alot to do with there countries inability to bake a loaf of bread never mind developing hockey players. --- Kev

 

[johnnyonthespot]

I would assume that if the other countries are more skilled than you are, then they should be in the finals everytime. The fact that they are not means the expression 'Europeans have more skill' is alot of booha. IMHO --- Kev

... Second, IMHO, the assumption that the most skilled teams should always be the ones in the final is specious. There are many, many factors that influence who gets to the finals.

- a team that plays a smart, physical game can often throw a more offensively creative team off their game plan, although that is tougher on the larger international surface.
- in a short tournament like this, a team with a hot goalie can literally run the board. Should Anaheim really have made it to the Stanley Cup finals? Looking at their roster, you wouldn't have thought so, but J.S. Giguere was absolutely unconscious, and carried that team on his shoulders almost all the way.
- again, in a short tournament, an injury to a key player can wipe out your chances. Even a bout of something like the flu that carries across a wide part of the team, as Canada dealt with this year, can be crippling.
- particularly in international hockey, the quality of the officiating you receive can significantly affect your success

"Skill" is important, but it's not a guarantee of success. Just look at where Ottawa and Colorado are sitting in their conference standings, compared to where most people thought they'd be.

This is fun ...

 

[qwert]

Don't forget...

the impact that political turmoil has had on the European hockey scene.

Canada's re-emergence has timed nicely with Czechs and Slovaks splitting, Russia splitting from the Ukraine, etc. Imagine how a team only from Ontario or Alberta would do to get an idea of the kind of struggle these other teams are having.

The economic mess created by these splits have also served to set back their minor and even professional hockey systems by 50 years or more.

I'm not so sure we have gotten any better.. I think our opponents have regressed.

 

[johnnyonthespot]

johnnyonthespot sorry i should have been more clear i was really including all the different hockey teams that represent Canada, not just the Juniors...

Collectively i believe Canada has a better record against the Europeans than vice versa in the last 5 years. Wouldn't you agree? Yet i still hear that they are more talented than us.

Actually, no, I wouldn't, but we're getting closer. I think you can add a few more Spenglers to that list - it seems like Canada owns that tournament. And I'd exclude the women's tournaments, because they're too new and Canada and the U.S. were really the only legitimate teams for a long time.

But, yes, this is the third year in a row in the junior finals for Canada, plus the last Olympics, and the last Worlds. If Canada wins the juniors, fingers crossed, then the Canadian hockey program will be on quite a roll over the last 2 or 3 years.

Personally, I do believe that European players are, on the whole, more offensively talented than North Americans. However, I don't believe the gap is as big as it was a few years ago, or as big as many make it out to be.

Where I think Canada, and the U.S. to some degree, have made huge improvements in recent years is in understanding what it takes to put together a successful team for these types of tournaments. They're getting the right balance of "skill" players, defensively-responsible forwards, physical players, mobile defencemen, and goaltenders suited for a larger ice surface. They're also choosing coaches more carefully than they used to.

And, success breeds success. The juniors have always been a serious thing, but the Canadian pros are taking the world championships a lot more seriously than they used to. I think that's partly due to wanting to measure up - last year's Worlds team wanted to duplicate the success of the Olympic team, this year's Juniors team wants to do better than last years. But I think it's also partly due to the fact that so many of their teammates during the regular season are European, and they see how seriously they take it.

 

[johnnyonthespot]

Re: Don't forget...

the impact that political turmoil has had on the European hockey scene.

Canada's re-emergence has timed nicely with Czechs and Slovaks splitting, Russia splitting from the Ukraine, etc. Imagine how a team only from Ontario or Alberta would do to get an idea of the kind of struggle these other teams are having.

The economic mess created by these splits have also served to set back their minor and even professional hockey systems by 50 years or more.

I'm not so sure we have gotten any better.. I think our opponents have regressed.

Good point. Plus, more and more Europeans at both the junior and pro level are playing here in North America. That means that the European national teams can't pull together and practice their teams for a full month or more before the tournament, like they used to do when Canada was getting spanked regularly in international competition. Heck, the Soviets used to practically take the entire Red Army team for the worlds, just swapping in a couple of players from Moscow Dynamo or Riga - it's no wonder they won year after year. If Canada had been sending the Montreal Canadiens in the latter half of the 70s, our record might have been substantially different.

Sorry for being all over this, folks ... I'm just really digging this thread.

 

[Kev]

Hockey Skill

Are the Europeans as a whole: better skaters, speed and so on............. NO

Are the Europeans as a whole: have better slap or wrist shots.........NO

Are the Europeans as a whole: better puck handlers...........NO ...well that could be debatable.

Are they smarter on the ice because they are European.......NO

What i'm saying Johnny.....just because you're from Europe does not mean you have more skill. Its seems prejudice to hold this assumption. Both continents produce outstanding hockey players. There are many North American (I should have included the USA in my comparison from the get go.) players that have better individual skill than our European counterparts. We should appreciate the Forsbergs, Naslunds, Kovalchuks as well as the Sakics, Weights, and whoever else you want to throw in there. I don't think one continent produces better players than the other.

This young man Crosbie at 16 is going to be amazing in a few years. He already is showing individual skill that far surpasses any of those who are of the same age or older and European. Cheers --- Kev

 

[johnnyonthespot]

OK, my last words on this, I promise ...

Kev, I absolutely agree - there are lots of skilled North American players and there are lots of skilled European players. In Vancouver, you should appreciate Markus Naslund and Todd Bertuzzi in equal measure. Here in Toronto, I love having both Mats Sundin and Gary Roberts, both Alex Mogilny and Owen Nolan, both Tomas Kaberle and Ken Klee. At the end of day, the only point we disagree on is whether Europe, on the whole, produces a greater number of offensively skilled players.

As for Sidney Crosby, he's a fantastically talented Quebec league junior hockey player. If he keeps developing, I'll enjoy watching him for the next 20 years or so. But there's no way I'd try to project that he'll be equally as amazing in the NHL. I've seen too many Alexander Daigles, Jason Bonsignores, and Chad Kilgers who were supposed to be the next Gretzky/Lemieux/Messier. Not to mention Eric Lindros, who I think has to have the biggest gap in history when comparing hype and potential to results. But as they used to say on Hammy Hamster, that's another story ...

 

[Kev]

I agree johnnyonthespot........

I think at one time the Europeans did have better skill, but only because they game they played was of more finesse than the physical play we see here in North America. You just can't skate down the ice in the NHL like you can in club play in Europe.

As more and more European players are coming to North America to play in our Junior programs i feel they are learning that finesse doesn't help you much when someone is trying to run you over. So they are learning a new skill.............the physical game. --- Kev