Europe considers sending troops to Ukraine as peacekeepers

[mandrill]

Essentially Vance has achieved the opposite of his intention.

Europe is so angry at its betrayal by the USA, that it is considering something that is very close to direct involvement in a war with Putin.

x.com

x.com

BREAKING Washington Post: Europe considers deploying 25,000–30,000 troops to Ukraine, not on the front lines but as a deterrent if Russia resumes hostilities.

 

[Valcazar]

Essentially Vance has achieved the opposite of his intention.

Europe is so angry at its betrayal by the USA, that it is considering something that is very close to direct involvement in a war with Putin.

x.com

x.com

BREAKING Washington Post: Europe considers deploying 25,000–30,000 troops to Ukraine, not on the front lines but as a deterrent if Russia resumes hostilities.

Here's the thing.
Almost any deal is going to implicate commitments from Ukraine and Europe, so they are going to have a say, no matter what Trump and Vance think.

The question of security guarantees are also going to come up.
There was a toothless one in 1991.
NATO seems off the table.
So who is going to provide those guarantees?
Who would Ukraine trust?

It can't be the US, that's for sure.
So the European countries most threatened by Russia stepping in seems likely to be discussed. (By no means certain that is what happens, of course.)

 

[SchlongConery]

Essentially Vance has achieved the opposite of his intention.

Europe is so angry at its betrayal by the USA, that it is considering something that is very close to direct involvement in a war with Putin.

x.com

x.com

BREAKING Washington Post: Europe considers deploying 25,000–30,000 troops to Ukraine, not on the front lines but as a deterrent if Russia resumes hostilities.

Betrayal being the key word here.

Trump is giving the same untrustworthy reputation he has personnaly to the United States. Like his legacy of being a dishonest con man, the US will be forever even more tarnished by his betrayal of its few remaining allies. It will no longer have 'freinds'. Canada and the USA used to be BEST friends. Could even go so far as to say there has never been a better, more deep and sincere friendship between two countries than between Canada and the United States. WE, Canada, have NEVER called on the UNited States military to help or so much as stand by us in any military conflict. Yet we, Canada, have answer the call of the US and sent our Canadian soldiers to fight alongside many conflicts the US has started. Seems to me like it's the United States that has taken advantage of Canada.

Now? We're spontaneously booing the United States national anthems at hockey games.

Fucking cocksucker Trump and the fucking selfish cunts who voted for him. And worse, CANADIAN traitors who have and continue to cheer him on, despite and in the face of his stated objective of ruining our economy and threatening to invade us. Fuck you fellow Canadian asshole, simpleminded fanboi traitors.

 

[seanzo]

Western militaries have been on the ground in Ukraine since the beginning of hostilities. Poles, Americans, Brits, Germans, French, Swedes, even Canadians... remember that Lieutenant General that was captured in Mariupol after the steel plant fell and was never seen or heard from again? The big difference between that and what is being proposed is that in almost every case those westerners have been wearing Ukrainian BDUs.


What's being proposed here is sheer lunacy, 30, 000 troops is slightly more than a division. One division on a front that stretches for nearly a thousand kilometers is going to make zero difference in the grand scheme of things, whether it's westerners on that front or whether they are replacing border guards on the Belarussian frontier.

Furthermore there's the problem of logistics and sustainment of those 30,000 troop. No one western country can even come close to what the Russians have as far as production is concerned. Even combined it's a fraction of what would be needed just to hold the lines as they are.

People need to accept that the Russians won the war already and the thing about winning wars is that when it comes time for peace talks the winner gets to dictate terms not the looser. The US cutting the Ukrainians and EU out of the negotiations, while hard to swallow, is absolutely necessary in order for Ukraine to even exist as a country in the aftermath because of they were involved no peace will be reached.

This is what happens when you allow a narrative to be spun as truth as opposed to the truth informing your narrative

 

[Valcazar]

People need to accept that the Russians won the war already and the thing about winning wars is that when it comes time for peace talks the winner gets to dictate terms not the looser. The US cutting the Ukrainians and EU out of the negotiations, while hard to swallow, is absolutely necessary in order for Ukraine to even exist as a country in the aftermath because of they were involved no peace will be reached.

So the US is going to just be the messenger conveying the terms Russia has laid out to Ukraine?
After all, the war has been won and Russia gets to dictate terms.

The US is just the legbreaker here? Enforcing Russia's will?

 

[mandrill]

Western militaries have been on the ground in Ukraine since the beginning of hostilities. Poles, Americans, Brits, Germans, French, Swedes, even Canadians... remember that Lieutenant General that was captured in Mariupol after the steel plant fell and was never seen or heard from again? The big difference between that and what is being proposed is that in almost every case those westerners have been wearing Ukrainian BDUs.


What's being proposed here is sheer lunacy, 30, 000 troops is slightly more than a division. One division on a front that stretches for nearly a thousand kilometers is going to make zero difference in the grand scheme of things, whether it's westerners on that front or whether they are replacing border guards on the Belarussian frontier.

Furthermore there's the problem of logistics and sustainment of those 30,000 troop. No one western country can even come close to what the Russians have as far as production is concerned. Even combined it's a fraction of what would be needed just to hold the lines as they are.

People need to accept that the Russians won the war already and the thing about winning wars is that when it comes time for peace talks the winner gets to dictate terms not the looser. The US cutting the Ukrainians and EU out of the negotiations, while hard to swallow, is absolutely necessary in order for Ukraine to even exist as a country in the aftermath because of they were involved no peace will be reached.

This is what happens when you allow a narrative to be spun as truth as opposed to the truth informing your narrative

Last time I checked the war was a stalemate and Russia was attriting badly.

Doesn't sound like "winning" to me.

 

[mellowjello]

Last time I checked the war was a stalemate and Russia was attriting badly.

Doesn't sound like "winning" to me.

Nobody knows the real truth on where this war stands.
My presumption would be that if Russia was doing that badly. Trump wouldn't be making overtures.

 

[seanzo]

So the US is going to just be the messenger conveying the terms Russia has laid out to Ukraine?
After all, the war has been won and Russia gets to dictate terms.

The US is just the legbreaker here? Enforcing Russia's will?

Ukraine's legs have already been broken long ago, all anybody can do is find the quickest way to end hostilities.

Last time I checked the war was a stalemate and Russia was attriting badly.

Doesn't sound like "winning" to me.

The best estimate of Russian losses has been done by a Mediazonea/BBC collaboration. According to their estimates Russian losses are around 100k killed, basic military math states for every one dead there should be two injured. So roughly 300k dead and wounded. Ukraine's estimates are far far worse at over a million dead alone.

Neither side is particularly open where their real casualty rates are at but a good way of gauging them is by exchanges of dead by both sides. A typical exchange would go something like 100 dead Russians exchanged for around 7-800 Ukrainians.

This is the unfortunate reality of the situation, pretending otherwise is only getting more Ukrainians killed in a war they cannot win even with the full backing of the west

 

[Valcazar]

Ukraine's legs have already been broken long ago, all anybody can do is find the quickest way to end hostilities.

You're not answering the question though.

If Russia has won and can dictate terms, why is the US meeting with it at all?
What role does the US play here?

 

[mandrill]

Ukraine's legs have already been broken long ago, all anybody can do is find the quickest way to end hostilities.



The best estimate of Russian losses has been done by a Mediazonea/BBC collaboration. According to their estimates Russian losses are around 100k killed, basic military math states for every one dead there should be two injured. So roughly 300k dead and wounded. Ukraine's estimates are far far worse at over a million dead alone.

Neither side is particularly open where their real casualty rates are at but a good way of gauging them is by exchanges of dead by both sides. A typical exchange would go something like 100 dead Russians exchanged for around 7-800 Ukrainians.

This is the unfortunate reality of the situation, pretending otherwise is only getting more Ukrainians killed in a war they cannot win even with the full backing of the west

None of those figures are remotely credible.

 

[underground]

Hey Europe, fix your own problems. Have you ever met a Ukrainian, German or Russian that was not arrogant ?

 

[seanzo]

You're not answering the question though.

If Russia has won and can dictate terms, why is the US meeting with it at all?
What role does the US play here?

It's America's war. They started it, they funded almost the entire thing, they provided intelligence, weapons and ammo. The only thing America hasn't done is send uniformed personnel from the American armed forces into Ukraine to fight the Russians. Putin see's the president of the US as the only person to negotiate with, especially after Zelenskyy's term expired and he has thus far refused to hold elections in Ukraine.

 

[oil&gas]

Essentially Vance has achieved the opposite of his intention.

Europe is telling Trump, Vance and the world: 'you don't want to
play in the game anymore........we will take your place......our boys
are ready to fight and die for democracy and our taxpayers will be
happy to foot the bill...'.

If I were Trump I'd be very glad. Remmber Trump has the thickest
skin among world leaders past and present.

 

[Anbarandy]

Remmber Trump has the thickest
skin among world leaders past and present.

Yes, we'll remember that .... tee-hee-hee.

His skin is so thickly, some would say the thickliest like the world has never seen before, that it needs to be basted in magma fired marmalade juices to keep it's orangey, radiant hue.

Good point oily, thanks for the reminder.

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

People need to accept that the Russians won the war already....

Well the Russians wouldn't be in the advantageous position today had the US not thrown Ukraine under the bus.
Pretty typical for them to do that to allies.

 

[mellowjello]

Well the Russians wouldn't be in the advantageous position today had the US not thrown Ukraine under the bus.
Pretty typical for them to do that to allies.

The verdict is still way out regarding the next move, nothing is as it seems with Trump.
This could be another Gaza, he brokers a deal, Hamas releases hostages, then Trump says he going
to keep the land and build a resort, pretty fucked up.
It would be a strategic disaster for the U.S. to back off and throw Ukraine under the bus.
It doesn't smell right.

 

[mellowjello]

Europe is telling Trump, Vance and the world: 'you don't want to
play in the game anymore........we will take your place......our boys
are ready to fight and die for democracy and our taxpayers will be
happy to foot the bill...'.

If I were Trump I'd be very glad. Remmber Trump has the thickest
skin among world leaders past and present.

I don't think Europe wants to take their place, I think they're just telling them to fuck off.
Europe is having enough economic problems as it is, no way they would take that role on and spend the
extra necessary money to beef up their own military.
Trump wants everyone to bump spending to 5%, Stamer says he can't and he won't, he's struggling just to get it to 2.5%.
Everyone else is in the same boat.
Either way, U.S. will never relinquish authority over Nato.

 

[Frankfooter]

Nobody knows the real truth on where this war stands.
My presumption would be that if Russia was doing that badly. Trump wouldn't be making overtures.

Russia hasn't really gained much territory in 2 years.
Trump offering Putin that he can keep what he took gives Putin a face saving way to end the war with some gains.

The EU already was supplying half the weapons to Ukraine, and not just the stuff that they were going to junk.

Its pretty much a stalemate right now, though without the US weapons it might be worse. Maybe.

 

[mellowjello]

Russia hasn't really gained much territory in 2 years.
Trump offering Putin that he can keep what he took gives Putin a face saving way to end the war with some gains.

The EU already was supplying half the weapons to Ukraine, and not just the stuff that they were going to junk.

Its pretty much a stalemate right now, though without the US weapons it might be worse. Maybe.

This war is not about territory, it's about NATO.
From that perspective, Russia's in the driver's seat. If anyone needs to save face it's U.S.
I don't know how the U.S. backs out with whatever reputation it has, still intact.
This would be a huge geopolitical shit kicking, I can't believe there isn't anything else brewing.

 

[Frankfooter]

This war is not about territory, it's about NATO.
From that perspective, Russia's in the driver's seat. If anyone needs to save face it's U.S.
I don't know how the U.S. backs out with whatever reputation it has, still intact.
This would be a huge geopolitical shit kicking, I can't believe there isn't anything else brewing.

I'd argue that the war was about Putin's dreams of empire.
Same way trump wants to invade Greenland, Panama and Canada.

Ukraine being a member of NATO was never a threat to Putin, only a threat to his ability to occupy and colonize Ukraine.