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Estate Planning Tax Question

Keebler Elf

The Original Elf
Aug 31, 2001
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320
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The Keebler Factory
A female friend of mine told me this situation and asked for my advice. My advice is going to be talk to a lawyer but I can't put my finger on why it won't work. It seems too easy (albeit situational).

The situation is this:

Two daughters and their aging father (not in good health but also not on his death bed).

Daughter #1 lives with the father in his house.

Daughter #2 lives alone in a townhouse she owns.

If father dies, the house would be sold and split evenly between the two daughters. But capital gains tax will apply (and daughter #2 will pay more tax bc she already owns her own home).

Instead, father is going to gift the house now to daughter #1 while he's still alive and she will immediately take out a mortgage for half the value of the house and gift the money to daughter #2. Daughter #1 will now own the house outright (albeit with a mortgage) and daughter #2 will get 50% of the house's value. No taxes.

So besides the obvious (a whole lotta trust needed to make this work lol), what's the flaw in their plan? I feel like this is too easy and they must be missing something but I can't put my finger on it. Depending on how long the father lives the house will accumulate in value so there is the lost value that daughter #2 won't get if she's paid out now but that's not really the tax question.

Anyone know anything about this tax/estate planning stuff?
 

chrispalen

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2007
3,036
3,012
113
A female friend of mine told me this situation and asked for my advice. My advice is going to be talk to a lawyer but I can't put my finger on why it won't work. It seems too easy (albeit situational).

The situation is this:

Two daughters and their aging father (not in good health but also not on his death bed).

Daughter #1 lives with the father in his house.

Daughter #2 lives alone in a townhouse she owns.

If father dies, the house would be sold and split evenly between the two daughters. But capital gains tax will apply (and daughter #2 will pay more tax bc she already owns her own home).

Instead, father is going to gift the house now to daughter #1 while he's still alive and she will immediately take out a mortgage for half the value of the house and gift the money to daughter #2. Daughter #1 will now own the house outright (albeit with a mortgage) and daughter #2 will get 50% of the house's value. No taxes.

So besides the obvious (a whole lotta trust needed to make this work lol), what's the flaw in their plan? I feel like this is too easy and they must be missing something but I can't put my finger on it. Depending on how long the father lives the house will accumulate in value so there is the lost value that daughter #2 won't get if she's paid out now but that's not really the tax question.

Anyone know anything about this tax/estate planning stuff?
Consult a lawyer specializing in estate planning.

CP
 

dirkd101

Well-known member
Sep 29, 2005
10,423
243
63
eastern frontier
I like the thought process, it's where everyone's head should be in life and I hope his will and POAs are up to date. CP is bang on, seek the advice of an estate planning lawyer.
 

Cbr20152012

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2023
590
1,241
93
Number of flaws in the original message. Additionally, this isn’t for a lawyer - it’s for a CPA. Start with a CPA m, then have lawyer execute the CPA’s advice (if even necessary).

Correct re POA (money and health) and will comment above.
 

K Douglas

Half Man Half Amazing
Jan 5, 2005
28,192
9,224
113
Room 112
A female friend of mine told me this situation and asked for my advice. My advice is going to be talk to a lawyer but I can't put my finger on why it won't work. It seems too easy (albeit situational).

The situation is this:

Two daughters and their aging father (not in good health but also not on his death bed).

Daughter #1 lives with the father in his house.

Daughter #2 lives alone in a townhouse she owns.

If father dies, the house would be sold and split evenly between the two daughters. But capital gains tax will apply (and daughter #2 will pay more tax bc she already owns her own home).

Instead, father is going to gift the house now to daughter #1 while he's still alive and she will immediately take out a mortgage for half the value of the house and gift the money to daughter #2. Daughter #1 will now own the house outright (albeit with a mortgage) and daughter #2 will get 50% of the house's value. No taxes.

So besides the obvious (a whole lotta trust needed to make this work lol), what's the flaw in their plan? I feel like this is too easy and they must be missing something but I can't put my finger on it. Depending on how long the father lives the house will accumulate in value so there is the lost value that daughter #2 won't get if she's paid out now but that's not really the tax question.

Anyone know anything about this tax/estate planning stuff?
If this is in Canada the house would be deemed a principal residence and therefore not subject to capital gains tax.
 
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K Douglas

Half Man Half Amazing
Jan 5, 2005
28,192
9,224
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Room 112
Yes, in Canada
Ok so none of this planning needs to be done then. The father just has to stipulate in his will what % of his Estate each daughter is entitled to receive.
 
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Keebler Elf

The Original Elf
Aug 31, 2001
14,678
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The Keebler Factory
Ok so none of this planning needs to be done then. The father just has to stipulate in his will what % of his Estate each daughter is entitled to receive.
I think the issue they're trying to avoid is daughter #2 not having to pay capital gains on her share.
 

Ponderling

Lotsa things to think about
Jul 19, 2021
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Mississauga
Allow one that is the live in to live in estate controlled house after death for a stipulated rent until she can buy it, presuming she qualifies for the mortgage.

Then father in will specifies POA/trustee private sale of house to daughter living there as soon as estate trustee can do that. Will need sale of house and final tax bill for all affairs fro all funds to be released.

Might be a case for a hired estate trustee who is also fathers POA.

Proceeds of estate are tax free, so both get funds tax free.

Or, simplier, transfer ownership to joint with live in, then to just her, and then she mortgages half of house for funds to pay out sister.
But then how to reconcile the effort of caring for aging parent?
 

anonemouse

Well-known member
Aug 23, 2002
932
344
63
Toronto
I think the issue they're trying to avoid is daughter #2 not having to pay capital gains on her share.
As others have said, seek professional help for it.

What they may tell you is that the house should be held jointly with the daughter living in it, and a term added to the father's will that jointly held assets are only jointly held for estate planning purposes and proceeds are intended for the estate. On death, ownership transfers to the daughter with no capital gains in any event, since it's the primary residence or probate tax. All they need to know is that it's possible and they should get advice from a lawyer that does estate planning as they can help with the title transfer which should only be around $700 plus disbursements.

Source: I did this with my parents, based on advice from an estate lawyer.
 

MattyMcG92

Active member
Jul 21, 2018
111
116
43
Hi Keebler Elf,

RE: Transferring Principal Residence After Death in Ontario


I work in Estate and Tax Law. I will try and get a response to you soon. I would like to confirm one detail of note. Does the father currently own any other property, such as a cottage or a rental home, aside from his principal residence?

Kind Regards,

Matt
 
Last edited:

Keebler Elf

The Original Elf
Aug 31, 2001
14,678
320
83
The Keebler Factory
Hi Keebler Elf,

RE: Transferring Principal Residence After Death in Ontario


I work in Estate and Tax Law. I usually finish work around 700 and will try and get a response to you soon. I would like to confirm one detail of note. Does the father currently own any other property, such as a cottage or a rental home, aside from his principal residence?

Kind Regards,

Matt
No other properties.
 
Ashley Madison
Toronto Escorts