Dubya's New Iraq, Little Different than Saddam's Iraq

[WoodPeckr]

Looks like Dubya's newly created nation after Saddam is doing many of the things the old nation under Saddam used to do!
At this rate, they may surpass Saddam's old killings records!
Dubya 'the nationbuiler'.....the more things he changes...the more they remain the same.......

Baghdad official who exposed executions flees

Jonathan Steele
Thursday March 2, 2006
The Guardian


Faik Bakir, the director of the Baghdad morgue, has fled Iraq in fear of his life after reporting that more than 7,000 people have been killed by death squads in recent months, the outgoing head of the UN human rights office in Iraq has disclosed.

"The vast majority of bodies showed signs of summary execution - many with their hands tied behind their back. Some showed evidence of torture, with arms and leg joints broken by electric drills," said John Pace, the Maltese UN official. The killings had been happening long before the bloodshed after last week's bombing of the Shia shrine in Samarra.

Mr Pace, whose contract in Iraq ended last month, said many killings were carried out by Shia militias linked to the industry ministry run by Bayan Jabr, a leading figure in the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (Sciri).

Mr Pace said records, supported by photographs, came from Baghdad's forensic institute, which passed them to the UN. The Baghdad morgue has been receiving 700 or more bodies a month. The figures peaked at 1,100 last July - many showing signs of torture.

Reports of government-sponsored death squads have sparked fear among many prominent Iraqis, prompting a rise in the number leaving the country. Mr Pace said the morgue's director had received death threats after he reported the murders. "He's out of the country now," said Mr Pace, adding that the attribution of the killings to government-linked militias did not come from Dr Bakir.

"There are other sources for that. Some militias are integrated with the police and wear police uniforms," he said. "The Badr brigade [Sciri's armed wing] are in the police and are mainly the ones doing the killing. They're the most notorious."

Some Iraqis accuse the Mahdi army militia, linked to the radical cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, of seizing and killing people. But Mr Pace said: "I'm not as sure of the Mahdi army as I am of the others."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1721366,00.html

The War President !!!

 

[sparty86]

Looks like Dubya's newly created nation after Saddam is doing many of the things the old nation under Saddam used to do!
At this rate, they may surpass Saddam's old killings records!
Dubya 'the nationbuiler'.....the more things he changes...the more they remain the same.......

Baghdad official who exposed executions flees

Jonathan Steele
Thursday March 2, 2006
The Guardian


Faik Bakir, the director of the Baghdad morgue, has fled Iraq in fear of his life after reporting that more than 7,000 people have been killed by death squads in recent months, the outgoing head of the UN human rights office in Iraq has disclosed.

"The vast majority of bodies showed signs of summary execution - many with their hands tied behind their back. Some showed evidence of torture, with arms and leg joints broken by electric drills," said John Pace, the Maltese UN official. The killings had been happening long before the bloodshed after last week's bombing of the Shia shrine in Samarra.

Mr Pace, whose contract in Iraq ended last month, said many killings were carried out by Shia militias linked to the industry ministry run by Bayan Jabr, a leading figure in the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (Sciri).

Mr Pace said records, supported by photographs, came from Baghdad's forensic institute, which passed them to the UN. The Baghdad morgue has been receiving 700 or more bodies a month. The figures peaked at 1,100 last July - many showing signs of torture.

Reports of government-sponsored death squads have sparked fear among many prominent Iraqis, prompting a rise in the number leaving the country. Mr Pace said the morgue's director had received death threats after he reported the murders. "He's out of the country now," said Mr Pace, adding that the attribution of the killings to government-linked militias did not come from Dr Bakir.

"There are other sources for that. Some militias are integrated with the police and wear police uniforms," he said. "The Badr brigade [Sciri's armed wing] are in the police and are mainly the ones doing the killing. They're the most notorious."

Some Iraqis accuse the Mahdi army militia, linked to the radical cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, of seizing and killing people. But Mr Pace said: "I'm not as sure of the Mahdi army as I am of the others."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1721366,00.html

The War President !!!

Looks like they still have a lot of work to do. Does this surprise you? Why do commies always point out flaws in democracies like Afghanistan or Iraq. Are they saying democracies don't work? That because they aren't perfect they should be replaced with fascists? I really don't understand this line of thinking, but I am sure you will set me straight.

 

[rogerstaubach]

This confirms to me the absolute brutality of those individuals who do not agree with democracy in Iraq. It also confirms the nature of those people in Iraq who wish to foist their version of facism upon the vast majority of Iraqi people who have opted for a democratic Iraq.

Thanks Woodpeckr! BTW, the numbers given in that Guardian article by a single Iraqi individual are grossly overstated. Accurate numbers are available of you wish to lend credibility to your argument.

 

[butternut]

Same Iraq

Old Iraq, New Iraq, Fascist Iraq, "Free" Iraq . . .

Same Iraq--New Management

 

[sparty86]

The cool thing about a democracy is you can vote out the scoundrels. The Iraquis never had that luxury before.

 

[danmand]

The cool thing about a democracy is you can vote out the scoundrels. The Iraquis never had that luxury before.

Maybe, but they cannot wote out the "good guys" i.e. the american occupation force.

 

[danmand]

Democracy in the Mideast isn't a luxury. It's irrelevant.
Example: Hammas in Palestine. It doesn't insure pluralism.
The bad thing about thinking other societies and cultures
even care about our form of government. It's the height of
ethnocentricity [ie cultural bias] to think that if its good for
us it must be good for everyone else. Democracy is a
false myth in the Mideast. Go back and read about the
society and culture of the Mideast and you might get
a glimpse of the reality that all other peoples don't
see the world through your rose colored glasses.

Now that I have put my head into this thread, I might as well also point out, that many people in Europe especially are not that impressed with the american variety of democracy.

 

[sparty86]

Democracy in the Mideast isn't a luxury. It's irrelevant.
Example: Hammas in Palestine. It doesn't insure pluralism.
The bad thing about thinking other societies and cultures
even care about our form of government. It's the height of
ethnocentricity [ie cultural bias] to think that if its good for
us it must be good for everyone else. Democracy is a
false myth in the Mideast. Go back and read about the
society and culture of the Mideast and you might get
a glimpse of the reality that all other peoples don't
see the world through your rose colored glasses.

Democracy is "irrelevant" in the ME? Duh, o.k. Louie. Democracy doesn't insure pluralism? Is there a point in there somewhere? You are dead wrong the freeedom afforded by democracy is in fact good for all people. You think the Arabs don't deserve freedom? How sickening and demeaning. Your multicultural sensitivity makes me vomit.

 

[sparty86]

Maybe, but they cannot wote out the "good guys" i.e. the american occupation force.

Sure they can. Their government has asked us to stay. If the people disagree, they can vote out this government. Saddam never allowed for that option. Pretty cool, huh?

 

[sparty86]

Now that I have put my head into this thread, I might as well also point out, that many people in Europe especially are not that impressed with the american variety of democracy.

Thanks for pointing that out. That really helps out this thread.

 

[sparty86]

Oh sure. You've a poor understanding of that region.
When the opposition gets too strong they call out the
military and create a military dictatorship. Go read
similar situations in Africa and the Mideast - Algeria
would be a good country study to start with.

You have a poor understanding of human wants and desires. Go live under an oppressive regime for a while and report back. Your historical examples have absolutely no worth in analyzing the current situation, because never before has a super power thrown its considerable weight behind the democratization of an Arab country.

 

[danmand]

You have a poor understanding of human wants and desires. Go live under an oppressive regime for a while and report back. Your historical examples have absolutely no worth in analyzing the current situation, because never before has a super power thrown its considerable weight behind the democratization of an Arab country.

Well, almost never. The Soviet Union threw its considerable weight behind forcing its form of democracy on an Islamic country, Afganistan.

 

[sparty86]

Glad you agree. Several, including Poland and the Slovak Republic,
have voted in the old guard, the communists, in recent elections.
Seems that free market capitalism with a minimal social safety net
doesn't meet their needs. Putin's election in Russia also evidences
a longing for the past social safety net and a reluctance to embrace
a free market economy and pluralist political system. Putin, after
all, was a former KBG operative. Democracy depends on the
society and culture and not necessarily the voting booth.
Czechoslovakia voted in the communists. Once in, they stayed in.
By police and military force, if necessary.

The point is, they voted. No one is voting away their voting rights. Communists get all kinds votes in democratic countries, but that doesn't mean the voters want to lose their right to vote, it just means they want commie economic policies. You seem to think that when a democracy votes in commies, it is no longer a democracy. Better do a little more reading, DQ, and join back in the thread when you understand this basic premise of democracy.

 

[sparty86]

Well, almost never. The Soviet Union threw its considerable weight behind forcing its form of democracy on an Islamic country, Afganistan.

I guess by definition Russia didn't have "considerable weight" because they couldn't defeat the Taliban. The US on the other hand got the Taliban to surrender to our Air Force. Now that is "weight."

 

[assoholic]

..outside of Kabul Warlords rule Afhanistan, ya real great job.

 

[sparty86]

Go read my reference to Algeria. The opposition, Islamic Fundamentalists,
posed a real threat so the entrenched power elite called off the elections
and began a military operation against their opponents. It's endemic. Those
in power stay in power. Elections only work when there is a history of a
loyal opposition knowing that the power will be transferred without reprisals.
You are obviously young, inexperienced and not well read. In short, you're
an idealist living in a very cruel world. You just don't know how cruel power
can be to those that oppose those in power.

You are obviously old, naive, and a pessimist. I prefer to believe like our President that all people deserve a shot at freedom. It is working out pretty well for Eastern Europe, South Korea, Japan, Germany, and Israel to name a few.

I'm out.

 

[assoholic]

...your obviously young and stupid and hopelessly ignorant.

 

[danmand]

You are obviously old, naive, and a pessimist. I prefer to believe like our President that all people deserve a shot at freedom. It is working out pretty well for Eastern Europe, South Korea, Japan, Germany, and Israel to name a few.

There it is, the freudian slip: "a SHOT at freedom". Your subconscience is better informed than your ego.

 

[rogerstaubach]

Maybe, but they cannot wote out the "good guys" i.e. the american occupation force.

I'm afraid you are dead wrong. The Iraqi people voted in representatives to represent them in gov't. The gov't elected by the people can at any time tell the coalition forces to leave or to remain. The gov't as voted in by the people in Iraq has asked the coaltion forces to stay until atleast the end of 2006. They can if they wish tell them to go at any time.

So as you can see, the Iraqi people by exercising their rights thru a democratic election have vested power in their reps. in gov't to make decisions as to: Do they stay, or do they go.

 

[rogerstaubach]

Now that I have put my head into this thread, I might as well also point out, that many people in Europe especially are not that impressed with the american variety of democracy.

The opposite is also true.