Cross Boarder Shopping Question - Large Purchase

[james t kirk]

So I'm looking to purchase new windows and doors.

I went to a Canadian Manufacturer and got a quote from his GTA Dealership. 35 grand. Turns out, he made some mistakes and when corrected, his price drops to 28 grand.

I was floored. I thought, this is nuts, I was figuring to use another non Canadian Manufacturer. But then I thought, why not call another dealership outside the GTA.

Called the one in Ottawa. Same everything = 25 grand. (No joke.)

So then I called another dealer in the US, figuring if the price was right, I'd drive down and pick them up in a truck and drive back.

Got the quote from the US dealer = 14 grand US.

What the fuck, seriously???

These are Canadian made windows that get shipped to the USA and I can buy them cheaper in the states than Canada.

I looked at the quotes, the American made some mistakes, but it might take his price up 2 grand'ish at best. The difference in the price is that the American Dealer is quoting me contactor prices and the Canadians are both quoting list prices. The American guy's quote actually shows "List Price" and "Net Price"

The Canadians both just show the price period.

Obviously, the American is much more competitive.

So I'm figuring I'll spend a day, rent a Ryder Truck and go and pick them up in the USA. (To save 11 grand, you're damn right.)

My questions are this:

1. Do I need to pay New York State sales tax if I am taking them back to Canada?

2. Do I need to pay HST, or just GST when I get to the boarder?

3. What about duty and customs fees? (They are made in Canada and I believe NAFTA exempts them from duty.)

4. Are there any potential pit falls.


My other option is to go back to the GTA Dealer and say, "I want Contractor Prices" and see what he says.

The one thing I can't do is tell him that I've approached the two other dealers because apparently, they have territory that they can market to and they are not allowed (or will get in trouble) for crossing into the other dealer's territory (more BS). I told the guy in the states that I have a cottage in New York State (he asked where my phone number was from). Ditto the guy in Ottawa - cottage along the Ottawa River. (I don't care if I lie about something that is going to save me this kind of money.)

 

[Mervyn]

Can't help you with the cross border question, but since you have gotten the quote I would ask the Canadian dealer for better prices, if you can get something closer to the American price, you can save the money in truck rental, gas and time.

 

[exploration]

1) yes
2) yes
3) i believe you dont. a quick call to the border services should get you an answer easily
4) warranty is the first thing that comes to mind

last year I did a similar thing with major appliances. I bought 10k worth of appliances in the states that would've cost me around 20k here and some of them wasnt even offered here. to get around your (1) issue of NY taxes, i bought my appliances from a state that did not have taxes... then had it shipped to buffalo. there are companies there that can store your stuff .. all you pay is a fee for their space when you pick it up. when I crossed the border, I told them what i bought and paid the 13%. the appliances were made in Canada so there are no duties / customs. I had to give up on warranty tho... still worth it imo.

 

[james t kirk]

^^^ How did you transport your appliances?

I was figuring to rent a truck, but was wondering what the implications of that might be. (Like Ryder won't let you drive a truck out of province)

 

[bazokajoe]

^^^ How did you transport your appliances?

I was figuring to rent a truck, but was wondering what the implications of that might be. (Like Ryder won't let you drive a truck out of province)

Nothing a phone call won't fix.

 

[DanJ]

I would take the US quote, copy it and remove any identifying info from it and show the local guy and see what else he's willing to do to get your business. If need be, I would also tell him you know about sales territories and you don't care, that guy doesn't know or have control of where you take the stuff once off his lot. If the guy gets into a reasonable ballpark (only you can decide what that's worth to you to not have to rent a truck and deal with the border and whatnot), then buy from him.

As for crossing the border, lots of people do this with rentals and you just need to clarify with the rental company you want to cross the border. They will say yay or nay based on the trucks they have onhand (licensing requirements). Regarding NY Sales Tax, I think you can claim it back through some process, just like they can claim back our sales taxes on stuff they take away, but yes, be prepared to pay our tax at the border (not sure if GST or HST).

 

[freestuff]

Can't you got a refund on the US taxes that you paid when you get to the border?

 

[bazokajoe]

Not 100% sure on the US tax refund,but I think you have to be over the border for a certain amount of time? I think it's for a minimum of 7days.
Border states would be flooded with tax refund forms if this wasn't the case.

Anyone have any idea about this.Would be good to know for my next vacation.

 

[Petzel]

That's Canada for you!

 

[angrymime666]

Ive purchased a lot of supplies from home depot buffalo. you have to pay the U.S. tax(8%) and then pay the hst on your purchases at the boarder. if its a north american made product you wont pay duty. my experience is that its costs half the price in the U.S. compared to canadian retailers for window and doors. not sure about warranty but the home depot U.S. has great customer service.

 

[onthebottom]

Buy them in Canada, it's the greatest country in the world and you should be happy to pay more for living there......

LOL

 

[james t kirk]

Buy them in Canada, it's the greatest country in the world and you should be happy to pay more for living there......

LOL

It is the greatest country in the world. But this particular retailer is not being very competitive compared to his American counterpart.

That said, I have reviewed the American's shop drawings on the windows and doors and the American has made 2 big mistakes (forgot one door and specified a completely incorrect window) both of which will add about 3.5 grand to his price.

Then, the American has quoted me a lower level of quality for the windows and doors than the Canadian. That will probably add about 2 grand to the order I'd say.

Then, the American has not quoted grilles at all. that will add another 2 grand.

So the advantage to going to the US is still there, but instead of 14 grand, it's probably about 6 or 7.

Now I'm going to have to pay 8% NYST as well.

So the advantage is rapidly shrinking.

My next move is to go back to the GTA Dealer and tell him that he needs to be offering me contractor pricing. Hopefully he agrees and the savings will become negligible.

 

[ig-88]

So the US has just this one guy that does this?

Shop around, regardless of state, province, or country.

 

[DanJ]

Again, if you have them shipped from the vendor to a Canadian address, there is no NYST charged

In the OP, he mentioned that because of sales agreements, the US guy can't ship them to another vendor's territory. Similar to why I couldn't order a Toronto Blue Jays golf shirt made by Cutter and Buck out of the US and have it shipped here, because they have to honour the Canadian distributor's territorial rights (even though the Canadian guy didn't offer it - go figure).

I also can't imagine what shipping costs for 20 grand worth of windows would be, but I bet it would be more than the sales tax.

 

[oldjones]

^^^ How did you transport your appliances?

I was figuring to rent a truck, but was wondering what the implications of that might be. (Like Ryder won't let you drive a truck out of province)

It was some time ago, but I drove Ryders into the States to do trade shows many times. They said they just wanted notice so the insurance can be tweaked, although there may have been costs I wasn't aware of.

 

[james t kirk]

In the OP, he mentioned that because of sales agreements, the US guy can't ship them to another vendor's territory. Similar to why I couldn't order a Toronto Blue Jays golf shirt made by Cutter and Buck out of the US and have it shipped here, because they have to honour the Canadian distributor's territorial rights (even though the Canadian guy didn't offer it - go figure).

I also can't imagine what shipping costs for 20 grand worth of windows would be, but I bet it would be more than the sales tax.

Exactly.

Any shipper would need to go through proper customs channels. (This much I do know from my work experience.) This is very costly.

You will not find an international bonded shipper for 8% on what does amount to be about 20 grand US.

 

[james t kirk]

In the OP, he mentioned that because of sales agreements, the US guy can't ship them to another vendor's territory. Similar to why I couldn't order a Toronto Blue Jays golf shirt made by Cutter and Buck out of the US and have it shipped here, because they have to honour the Canadian distributor's territorial rights (even though the Canadian guy didn't offer it - go figure).

I also can't imagine what shipping costs for 20 grand worth of windows would be, but I bet it would be more than the sales tax.

Correct, he would not quote me if I was buying them for Canada.

Essentially, I had a friend in Pennsylvania call him up pretending to buy for his cottage in New York State. The dealer has no idea what I'm proposing to do. (If I do it.)

Right now, I need to get both the Canadian and the American quotes to be identical. Both have submitted shop drawings for me to review and the American's shop drawings are TERRIBLY wrong and the Canadian shop drawings are also fucking wrong, but not as wrong as the American's.

Makes you wonder.

Moral of the story, when you're buying windows and doors, make sure that you check those shop drawings from top to bottom. (All 20 pages of them!) cause otherwise, you won't get what you think you're going to get.

 

[james t kirk]

The he should call around - other distributors / states / provinces.. it is just a matter of time before he finds one which will violate the mfr-distributor agreement and ship outside their area... I sell / buy outside my trading areas all the time at work.. it is possible

I didn't get that impression.

And it's not worth the extra distance.

My other alternative is to seek out a price from another window manufacturer other than the one I have approached. (Say Andersen, even though Andersen has fucked me around in the past.)

But my window and door of choice is Canadian made and of very high quality.

The difference would seem to be that the American Dealer is quoting me contractor prices and the Canadian is quoting me list. I'm not a Contractor but I have done many residential jobs and designs that involve windows. Unfortunately, home owners seldom listen to your recommendations when it comes to windows (because my brand of choice costs large.)

A great many suppliers give the guy off the street "contractor" prices these days.

But this window and door dealer in the GTA does not, or maybe I have to push him to. I dunno.

Example, Olympia tile. If you're a contractor, you will get 40% off of list price. Fortunately, I have a good friend who is a tiler and I just go to Olympia and order them under my friend's name and everyone is happy.

In reviewing the American Window Dealer's quote, he is coming 40% off of list and his list price pretty much matches that of the Canadian Dealers' quote.

 

[james t kirk]

^^^ Depends on the savings.

Right now, the quotes are not apples to apples.

But if it ends up being 10 grand cheaper in the USA, damn right I'll rent a cargo carrier and run down there and pick them up.

If it's 2 grand, then it's not worth it.

Initially the American quote was 14 grand less than the Canadian quote, but the American guy has made some substantial mistakes.

 

[Ceiling Cat]

Under free trade, if it is American made then there should be no duties, if it is Canadian made there should definitely be no duties. I know a guy that bought a lawn tractor in the USA for $1200 cheaper, there were foriegn part in it but because it met the standard for USA parts and assembled in the USA there was no duty.