Citizens Bank of Canada closing its LOC, wants everyone to pay up!

Due to Citizens Bank focusing on Visa and selling most of their products except the Line of Credit to TD Canada Trust they have decided to close their LOC product.

My brother received a letter today:

Over the past few months, we have been in touch with you regularly about changes to Citizens Bank products and services as a result of our exit from the personal banking marketplace. This letter is to inform you that effective March 31, 2010, some of your products will be closed and there are actions you must take before this closure date.

Effective March 31, 2010, your chequing and/or savings account(s) and associated credit arrangements such as Unsecured Creditline and Overdraft Protection, will be closed. Any outstanding balances on your credit arrangements will need to be paid by March 31, 2010.


I think he owes about 20k. Paying about 200 per month through ATM. He cannot pay 20k by next month, no way can I lend him that much money in that short time. He has his other credit to the fullest and his credit rating is not good. Loan is unsecured.

Will the bank negotiate or does anyone here have a LOC from Citizens as well to give him some advice? Another thing, should he call now or wait until near the end of March to call (maybe they loosened up because they didn't realize how many people got affected by this)?

Can the bank call the LOC like this? I've worked in the bank many moons ago, but this is the first time I've seen such a magnitude. I assume a lot of people will be affected, how can they sue everyone????

Thanks.
 
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landscaper

New member
Feb 28, 2007
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he needs to check his loan agreement with them , LOC's can be a call loan, however if they are selling everything else to TD and if his credit is OK I don't see why they did not sell that as well. Check the agreement and see if another bank wants his business, some publicity might not hurt either , if he and others in the same boat were to get together and call a tv station with a consumers affairs reporter...................
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
24,032
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I'm sure there is some weasel clause in the mouse print on the back of the agreement he signed back when that they will use to fuck him over.
 
I'm sure there is some weasel clause in the mouse print on the back of the agreement he signed back when that they will use to fuck him over.
True. But keep in mind I assume there are hundreds of people who cannot pay their LOC as well, so it's not just him. How can they fuck with everyone else and cost of suing/court processes for ALL their LOC holders? I use to be a banker, but when I saw this letter he showed me, wow, it was ridiculous. Shit, I bet he lost his agreement form knowing him.
 

koreanenvy

Member
Jan 22, 2010
443
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Most LOCs are callable, so your bro is on the hook. However, the bank doesn't want you to go bankrupt, they just want their money. I would be patient and hold off on paying them for now, then when the time comes negotiate with them a new payment plan. I have seen this too many times where the bank will accept a mutually agreed upon payment plan with reduced or zero interests, or in some cases if you hire someone like BDO they can even reduce your debt, but you pay commisions.
 
My brother is talking to them right now. I'll let you guys know what's up........ Nevermind, he wanted to talk to a manager and he'll be available in 1 hour. The lady on the phone first told him in a rude way...."What do you mean what options?! He has none other than to pay in full before March 31st!" He said," okay, so it's either I default or go bankrupt...." She calmed down tremendously and told him she didn't exactly know what's going to happen and that they hope that people who can get another Loan can pay this one off...other than that, they have no clue what to do...yet. He wanted to speak to her superior.

Yes, I believe LOC are Callable. BUT at a reasonable effort and standard. God forbid, if Calgary had an earthquake, the bank will not send out a note calling their debts for the people in Calgary.
 

shrek71

Active member
Jul 12, 2006
780
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Write Some Letters

You could write some letters such as these and see how it will resolve the matter. These letters have been reportedly used to discharge debts from loans, lines of credit, credit cards, etc.

Letter Number 1:

For use with just about any type of financial obligation issued by a licensed financial institution mortgage, credit card, bank loan etc. (Does not work if the loan is from a “private” source.)


From: ____________________
Date: ____________________
To: ____________________
Re: ___(Credit Card, bank loan, mortgage,
etc.)
Account Number:___________

To Whom it may concern:

I would like to make arrangements to settle the above referenced matter.
Please provide me with your statement of the amount owing as of ___(pick date 2 weeks out for example)___, together with your assurance that you will accept payment in direct and immediate exchange for the original instrument of indebtedness in its original form.

Thank you very much.

___________________________
by: authorized party




Letter Number 2A:
For use with adjustments in most cases when you receive the initial response from Letter 1 above, where they confirm an amount owing and provide some comment that the “statements” or some other lame documentation they provide are evidence of the obligation.


From: ____________________
Date: ____________________
To: ____________________
Re: ___(Credit Card, bank loan, mortgage,
etc.)
Account Number:___________

To Whom it may concern:

Thank you for your letter of __date______, wherein you confirm my outstanding balance as requested.
Also, you have confirmed that the“statements that _____(name of institution here)____ sends are your evidence of your indebtedness to the Bank”. (This is a quote from actual bank letter and wording may vary slightly, but should where possible
be quoted from their letter.)

Accordingly, would you please confirm that the Agreement that exists between us which ratifies this specific application of these “statements” and confirms me as the party obligated to the Bank will be delivered to me as the original instrument of
indebtedness in its original form, in exchange for payment in full of my obligation as may be referenced by these “statements”.

Sincerely,

__________________________________________________
by: authorized party




Letter Number 2B:

For use with adjustments in other cases when you receive the initial response from Letter 1 above, where they confirm an amount owing and simply ignore the second part of the request.


From: ____________________
Date: ____________________
To: ____________________
Re: ___(Credit Card, bank loan, mortgage,etc.)
Account Number:__________

To Whom it may concern:

Thank you for your letter of ________, wherein you confirm my outstanding balance as requested. It is apparent that you have overlooked or ignored my request to confirm that you would accept full payment of the alleged obligation from me in consideration of your delivery to me of the original instrument of indebtedness in its original form. Accordingly, unless I receive your written confirmation that you will accept payment from me in consideration of your delivery to me of the original instrument of indebtedness in its original form on or before ____(pick a date like 15 days from sending the letter)____, I will conclude that you are either unable or unwilling to comply, and I will thereafter consider the matter between us to have been legally and financially settled.

Sincerely,

________________________________________________
by: authorized party



Letter Number 3:

For use with adjustments in other cases when you receive NO response from Letter #1 above.


From: ____________________
Date: ____________________
To: ____________________
Re: ___(Credit Card, bank loan, mortgage,etc.)
Account Number:__________

To Whom it may concern:

I have sent you my request as of ___(date)___ for you to confirm the balance owing on the above referenced matter and for you to confirm that you would accept full payment of the alleged obligation from me in consideration of your delivery to me of the original instrument of indebtedness in its original form. It is apparent that you have overlooked or ignored my request. Accordingly, unless I receive your written confirmation that you will accept payment from me in consideration of your delivery to me of the original instrument of indebtedness in its original form on or before ____(pick a date like 15 days from sending the letter)____, I will conclude that you are either unable or unwilling to comply, and I will thereafter consider the matter between us to have been legally and financially settled.

Sincerely,

______________________________________________________
by: authorized party



NOTES:
1. The concepts outlined in these documents will also work for most Court Orders to pay. Simply change the wording such that you are requesting confirmation that the court will accept payment in consideration of their delivery to you of the Original
Order, as duly executed by ___(Judge name)___ and in its original form (which is the original instrument of indebtedness).

2. This process will not work with private lenders because in most cases they can and will produce the original instrument of indebtedness.
3. If you receive any communication from a collection agency or lawyer representing the financial institution, you should follow the concepts outlined in the above letters but ONLY in direct correspondence with the financial institution. NEVER respond to a lawyer or collection agency with anything other than the concept outlined in Letter 4 that follows.



Letter Number 4:

For use with when terminating communication from financial institution’s lawyer or collection agent.

From: ____________________
Date: ____________________
To: ____________________
Re: ___(Credit Card, bank loan, mortgage,
etc.)
Account Number:___________

To Whom it may concern:

I confirm that I have received a written communication from you dated ___(date)___ wherein you make reference to the above captioned matter. It is apparent that you are acting on the presumption that some relationship that you may have with ___(name of bank)___ , is in some way related to me. I am not a party to this implied relationship you have with ___(name of bank)___, either directly, indirectly or by means of any tacit consent.

Accordingly, I do not understand how to respond to you inasmuch as I am unaware of any contractual relationship between us.
As a courtesy and because you may find it helpful, I have attached recent correspondence between myself and ___(name of bank)___, wherein I have repeatedly offered to settle the mater between myself and ___(name of bank)___.


Sincerely,
___________________________
by: authorized party

c.c file



Letter Number 5:
Alternate for use with when terminating communication from financial institution’s lawyer or collection agent.

From: ____________________
Date: ____________________
To: ____________________
Re: ___(Credit Card, bank loan, mortgage,
etc.)
Account Number: __________

To Whom it may concern:

I confirm that I have received a written communication from you addressed to _____________ and dated ____________ wherein you make reference to the above captioned matter.

It is apparent that either:

i) you are acting on the presumption that some relationship that you may have with __(name of bank)__, is in some way related to me, which if such presumption is the case, I confirm that I am not a party to this implied relationship you have with __(name of bank)__, either directly, indirectly or by means of any tacit consent, and accordingly, I do not understand how to respond to you inasmuch as I am unaware of any contractual relationship between us; or

ii) you have entered into a contractual relationship inclusive of evidence of consideration paid to or agreed to be paid to __(name of bank)__, which contractual relationship has caused you to become the legal holder in due course of an alleged
obligation between ____________ and __(name of bank)__.

If indeed you have entered into such a contractual relationship with __(name of bank)__, as set forth in clause ii) above, then I hereby confirm that I accept your offer to reduce the amount of the alleged obligation from $______ to $______; and I confirm that I would like to make arrangements for settlement of the above referenced matter immediately upon you providing me with your written and legally binding assurance that you will accept payment in full settlement of this alleged obligation in direct and immediate exchange for the original instrument of indebtedness in its original form that you must now be holding pursuant to the aforesaid contractual arrangement between you and __(name of bank)__.

Sincerely,

_____________________________________________
by: authorized party


NOTE: underlined portion in last paragraph may be omitted if not applicable.
 
So he spoke to the manager of Collections just 2 mins ago, long story short here is what was said:

1. Don't know what's going on after March 31st. (seems like they are clueless)

2. Cannot guarantee if full balance will be called upon after March 31st.

3. Suggest to bump up monthly payments and find alternative source of 20k to pay them.

4. Suggest to continue to pay at ATM, do not know if deposit access will be restricted after March 31st, she found the letter of "final notice" confusing as well. If restricted she said maybe some type of pre-auth payments can be done, not sure. But again, cannot guarantee if full balance will be called upon.

Result: he is still confused
 
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jgd

Member
Aug 30, 2004
250
4
18
Ontario
the big picture

I suggest your brother contact a good mortgage broker, not a bank employee and take stock of all his debts at once. Sounds like he is running out of options and he needs to deal with the root of the problem.
This is a good time to be in debt with historically low interest rates but by next year, if not sooner, those rate will start to go up and your brother will be in real trouble.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
24,032
3,879
113
Is it a secured Line of Credit? (Doesn't sound like it)

If not, it's their problem more than it is his. If it's a secured LOC, then they have lien on something worth some coin and they can take legal action accordingly.

If it's an unsecured Line of Credit - ba ha ha, he tells them that he will continue to make payments and they can go pound salt. What's the worst that they can do to him? Sick a collection agency on him? Big deal, get a cell phone.
 
Is it a secured Line of Credit? (Doesn't sound like it)

If not, it's their problem more than it is his. If it's a secured LOC, then they have lien on something worth some coin and they can take legal action accordingly.

If it's an unsecured Line of Credit - ba ha ha, he tells them that he will continue to make payments and they can go pound salt. What's the worst that they can do to him? Sick a collection agency on him? Big deal, get a cell phone.
Loan is unsecured. I am not familiar with the area of collections (never had to and hopefully never will) but aren't they going to take his car (or repo his shit at his home) if it furthers to a collection agency? From what I have read on collection agencies (if he ever travels that route), they do not take monthly payment arrangements and will take 80% of the amount owed, fact or fiction or depends on the agency?
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
80,011
7
0
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
is.gd
Loan is unsecured. I am not familiar with the area of collections (never had to and hopefully never will) but aren't they going to take his car (or repo his shit at his home) if it furthers to a collection agency? From what I have read on collection agencies (if he ever travels that route), they do not take monthly payment arrangements and will take 80% of the amount owed, fact or fiction or depends on the agency?
Fiction. It's an unsecured loan. All they can do is go get a judgement against him and then force him into bankruptcy if he can't pay it. The bankruptcy court could then sell off his assets, but the unsecured creditors do not have a right to up and seize his stuff.

If he WAS making his payments on time on a reasonable repayment schedule and he wants to continue doing that the odds are high that they'll find a way to allow him to continue doing that, but it'll be a PITA to get it sorted out.
 

train

New member
Jul 29, 2002
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The bankruptcy court could then sell off his assets, but the unsecured creditors do not have a right to up and seize his stuff.
The bankruptcy court is actually working on behalf of the unsecured creditors but if he is solvent it is unlikely to get to this stage. You can seize assets from a solvent debtor with a judgement without a bankruptcy proceeding.
 
The bankruptcy court is actually working on behalf of the unsecured creditors but if he is solvent it is unlikely to get to this stage. You can seize assets from a solvent debtor with a judgement without a bankruptcy proceeding.
Solvent? The ability to pay upon due. Do you mean when March 31st comes around and he pays off the 20k or if he makes at least above his minimum payments on time? When you speak of assets being seized, can it include the house (highly unlikely) and his car (but what if the value is 30k which is above 20k)? How does the seizing assets work? Never really figured that out except in movies where the repo man comes and takes away the sofa.
 

Mencken

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
1,058
47
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To seize anything, assuming the LOC is unsecured, they would have to go through a court process which takes time and costs them money, so it is unlikely if he is making efforts at repayment. Yes, they can probably call the loan, but they don't have a lot other than bluster to force him to pay it instantly. They will find a way to come to an agreement if your brother is willing to be reasonable about paying it off. As a previous poster said...it is more the bank's problem than his, but having said that they can, in time get a judgement and try to force it that way.
 
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Moraff

Active member
Nov 14, 2003
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Solvent? The ability to pay upon due. Do you mean when March 31st comes around and he pays off the 20k or if he makes at least above his minimum payments on time? When you speak of assets being seized, can it include the house (highly unlikely) and his car (but what if the value is 30k which is above 20k)? How does the seizing assets work? Never really figured that out except in movies where the repo man comes and takes away the sofa.
Pretty sure that when the repo person comes to take your car or home, it is because you have defaulted on the payments to the company that sold you the car or holds the mortgage on your home. Since it is most likely an unsecured LOC that means there are no assets attached to it as collatoral... therefore nothing to be "repo'd". As has been said, the bank can ask for the full repayment, and since they gave him approx. 2 months notice, that probably covers the "need to let him know in advance" (have to read the agreement to see what timeline is there). Should he not pay (or make some other arrangements with the bank) they could take him to court and the court could order him to pay up or go bankrupt.

As for whether they'd do it or not.... depends on how many people (and amounts) in question. Certainly at the very least they'd sell the debts to a collection agency.

Personally I believe he'd be better off either getting a LOC from someone else, doing a consolidation mortgage on his house (if possible), or communicating with the bank NOW (someone higher up than the front-line staff) and explain why he cannot come up with the full payment in the time requested... what other options can be done.
 

rhuarc29

Well-known member
Apr 15, 2009
9,643
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Most loans have the condition that a bank can call the full amount due whenever they want. I just don't think it happens that often because it gives the bank a bad image, which I'm guessing isn't a hindrance to these guys since they're leaving the personal banking market.
 
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