Canada's Screwed Up Political Spectrum

[jbl00]

I just picked up this morning's paper and man, I'm pissed. I don't know about the rest of you but doesn't it seem like the selection of Jack Layton as leader seems to doom the NDP to perpetual fringe party?
Having said that, the right side of the spectrum is just as bad with the CA and PC splitting to vote and allowing the Liberals to have in effect, a dictactorship. That's the really annoying part, the Libs know it and they take liberties because of that.
So back to my earlier beef. What's your take? I say with Layton they'll go no where fast.

 

[gramage]

and with someone else they would have gone somewhere? wakeup call the NDP has always been and will always be a throwaway vote federally because quite frankly they are a fringe party, same as the alliance. bottom line the liberals stay in power until the right wingers wake up and realize the far right will never win.

 

[jbl00]

NDP

Well the first step would have been to gain some credibility. I was watching the coverage of the convention and IMHO Nystrom was the candidate with any sense of fiscal responsibility.
If the left is ever going to be an alternative they've got to stop making me check to make sure I still have my wallet whenever they are near.
The right's a different kettle of fish. Every time I see a CA MP I can't help but picture some white pointy hoods on their heads.

 

[train]

There were many comments in the print media that Layton won due to the universal support he received from union leaders . I have no idea whether or not this is true .....but there could be some truth to it .There must be organized support from somewhere to shove a city councilor into a landslide first ballot victory on the national political scene . ( I guess calling the NDP national may be stretching it a bit ) .
There is , however, No bigger business than trade unions . Ironic isn't it .

 

[happywanderer]

If Paul Martin really wants to be PM, leave the Liberals, join the Tories (he has always IMHO been more of a Red Tory than a true Liberal) ... he would instantly be made Party leader, and would probably drag at least a quarter, if not a third of the Liberal party with him. Come next election... ?


TTFN

 

[notenufmuff]

If Paul Martin really wants to be PM, leave the Liberals, join the Tories (he has always IMHO been more of a Red Tory than a true Liberal) ... he would instantly be made Party leader, and would probably drag at least a quarter, if not a third of the Liberal party with him. Come next election... ?


TTFN

I am a staunch PC supporter. I would welcome Martin to the helm. (Even though we all know it would never happen)

I'm not sure he will be able to get much done as leader of the Liberal party. I predict the following: Liberals will win the next election. Why? LOW VOTER TURNOUT

 

[chain reaction]

The Alliance and the NDP have never been (and will not be for the forseeable future) considered an option in the second most populous province. Get used to perpetual Liberal governments. I read not so long ago that 50% of Canadians don't even know who Stephen Harper is!

 

[Timberwolf]

I am a staunch PC supporter. I would welcome Martin to the helm. (Even though we all know it would never happen)

I'm not sure he will be able to get much done as leader of the Liberal party. I predict the following: Liberals will win the next election. Why? LOW VOTER TURNOUT

Apathy is running high in this country due to the one party dictatorship we have. I do not think this will change in my lifetime. The people of Canada are very sheep like and I doubt they have the where with all to make changes.

Another problem is the electoral system. In the last election the Libs got 40% of the vote. In the prior election they got 41% of the vote. Yet they managed a majority government in both elections!! Now that is bad. And leads to the thinking that your vote really does not count. Yes indeed, we are in trouble.

 

[Pistol Pete]

Another problem is the electoral system. In the last election the Libs got 40% of the vote. In the prior election they got 41% of the vote. Yet they managed a majority government in both elections!! Now that is bad. And leads to the thinking that your vote really does not count. Yes indeed, we are in trouble.

I think that part is overblown. The Liberals are most people's second choice if they don't actually vote for them. If they had a runoff between the first and second place finisher to get someone over 50% (like they do in France and other places), the Liberals would get way over 50%. Imagine the last election with the Liberals and Alliance in a 2 horse race. They would have killed them.
I think the problem right now is the lack of a national opposition party that could actually take power in the relatively near future. Hence, voter apathy.
For myself, they are the best of a bad lot. The evil you know kind of thing. I would like to get the PCs back as a solid opposition but until the Alliance yahoos disappear, that's not going to happen.

 

[pblues]

I would like to get the PCs back as a solid opposition but until the Alliance yahoos disappear, that's not going to happen.

Agreed. This isn't going to happen with the PC's and the Alliance amalgumating either.

 

[Timberwolf]

Stupid Conservatives

And of course, as long as the pc's have the likes of Joe Who at the helm, they are doomed. Don't get me wrong. Joe Clark is a good man and underrated. Problem is his history follows him and he is not capable of winning an election. He should have stepped aside long ago for the well being of the party so that it could have groomed a viable candidate. It is too late now.

 

[Pistol Pete]

The reason the PCs and Alliance have not amalgamated is that they are separate parties. They have some right wing policies in common but the Tories are too centrist for most Alliance supporters, especially the Alberta ones who form the majority of that party.
They did a poll around the time of the last election a couple of years back and found that most PC voters' second choice were the Liberals.
The PCs' biggest problem is that they are essentially centrists but the Liberals have a stranglehold on the centre right now. And, barring really unexpected events, most Canadians do not want extremists, right or left, running things.

 

[jbl00]

NDP, CA etc.

Apathy is running high in this country due to the one party dictatorship we have. I do not think this will change in my lifetime. The people of Canada are very sheep like and I doubt they have the where with all to make changes.

Another problem is the electoral system. In the last election the Libs got 40% of the vote. In the prior election they got 41% of the vote. Yet they managed a majority government in both elections!! Now that is bad. And leads to the thinking that your vote really does not count. Yes indeed, we are in trouble.

Ah, but Timberwolf, Israel and Italy had proportional electoral systems in contrast to our first past the post. With their electoral systems it was perpetual coalition governments with the balance of power held by fringe parties at either extreme of the electoral system. Now THAT's bad! (Is this why Israel can't bite the bullet and remove settlements from the West bank? Because the ultra-orthodox parties hold the government hostage???)

Personnally I don't blame the electorate as much as the (non-Liberal) parties themselves. They would rather let the Liberals win by default.

 

[Timberwolf]

Canadian Politics

Forgive me, I have been away, therefore tardy in my response.

To Pistolpete: I take it that your use of the pronoun "they" throughout your post on 1/28/03/6:02 pm refers to the liberals. The liberals are not the problem; it is the electoral system and the conservative party. The conservative party seems to have no idea of how to win and maintain power in this country. Unfortunately, the word "idiots" comes to mind when discussing them, that is, the conservative party. That Joe Clark is still at the helm speaks volumes regarding their political competence.

Mac123: Voter apathy happens when there is no viable alternative. It happenned in Russia (Stalin), Germany ( Hitler who, by the way, only received 34.1% of the vote ) , Chile ( Pinochet ), China ( Mao ), ............ and in Ontario ( When NDP voted in ), and ............

True, the PC's are the silent majority. For some reason it does not have the political savy play the political game.

 

[Timberwolf]

To: jbloo. No, that is not why the Isrealis refuse to remove the settlements from the West Bank. You are triggering another discussion which requires you to be very well informed regarding Middle East history before engaging.

 

[mr. x]

A socialist with a sense of fiscal responsibility. Now there's an oxymoron....


CC

not really - in sakatchewan, both tommy douglas and roy romanow are generally credited with being fiscally responsible in the way they ran their governments...

in romanows case, he had to clean up a mess left behind the grant devine and his conservatives...

and if you look at the US, its Bush who wants to be irresponsible!

 

[mr. x]

To: jbloo. No, that is not why the Isrealis refuse to remove the settlements from the West Bank. You are triggering another discussion which requires you to be very well informed regarding Middle East history before engaging.

i agree - we do not want to get into that debate!

however, it is generally aknoweldged that the proportional representation there has allowed fringe right-wing othodox parties to call the tune on a variety of things - mainly in getting the country to enforce religion and to subsidise various things, including west bank settlements. many (most?) israelis want a far more secular state - this lead to the rise of Shinui (change) in the last election.


getting back on topic, the best system is not proprtional representation, but a "preferential ballot" system - as has been mentioned - like australia. we already use a similar system to elect the various party leaders by having more than one ballot - a preferential has the same effect but only requires that you fill out one ballot and pick your first, second third choices - or evcen more.

the advantage is that a government only gets a majority government if truly gets the supportof 505 of the poeple in 50% of the ridings.

with proportional representation, over time the political parties tend to fragement into ever smaller single issue parties, and what gets implemented is the result of various backroom deals between the parties - like in israel. with a proportional ballot, people can still vote for single issue parties, but the centrist parties will be forced to try to reach out to the fringe party voters to be their second or third choice.

this change alone will not solve the problem of apathy - eliminating corporate/union donations is also good, but unfortunately our parliamentary system needs deeper changes that will put more power in the hands of local mps - this might even mean going to a US style system instead of the "responsible government" system we have based on the british model.

 

[jbl00]

I know it's off topic

To: jbloo. No, that is not why the Isrealis refuse to remove the settlements from the West Bank. You are triggering another discussion which requires you to be very well informed regarding Middle East history before engaging.

Timberwolf, I never claimed to be well informed, I am however, not ignorant. The Mid-East situation concerns me as I assume it does for most people, and that is an opinion that I voiced not a statement of fact.

Another opinion: And I think they came damn close with Olso (flame me if you want on that it's just my opinion). Any ways to this civilian it certainly looks like the Israeli and Palestinian problem is excerbated by extremists on both sides. In Israel's case they are elected extremists so IMHO a porportional system would be even worse. We have 5 parties now, image Canada with 15!

 

[Timberwolf]

jbl00

I have to disagree with you. One does not find extremest suicide bombers amongst the Jews. There may be radical political extremests but they are not murderers. Ehud Barak was prepared to give the Palestinians almost everything they wanted. Expert observers were shocked and stunned that Barak was prepared to give away so much for peace. No one had anticipated that generosity. Arafat turned down the offer. This is the reason for the unrest in the Middle East; not the electoral system but people dedicated to the destruction of Isreal.

 

[train]

Re: jbl00

I There may be radical political extremests but they are not murderers.

While I agree with you I think the MOSAD has a reputation for being fairly skilled at this . I often wondered if they had tried in the past to dust Saddam . He certainly would be a target worthy of their skills .