Bad Date Hotline: FYI
- Thread starter pau2lo
- Start date
Sorry to be cynical, and I'm probably not the type of SP they're aiming that at, but I think Ottawa SPs have little reason to trust the police or anyone associated with them.
On several occasions in the past, police have been loose lipped with the press that they got ahold of client records and that they might become public. The end result of this was that many Ottawa hobbyists decided to make like turtles and become anonymous. How exactly did this make anything better? This has only served to make it riskier for many of us. Now Ottawa SPs have trouble distinguishing between legit customers and serial sex criminals because they ALL want to be anonymous. This is a bad situation that the Ottawa police have actively made worse through their own poor judgment and lack of understanding of our circumstances.
The Ottawa police turn a blind eye to rampant blatant advertising of incalls and massage "plus" services, but make indiscriminate occasional busts. How can anyone abide by the law when it's spottily enforced, and when there's pressure to break the law to compete? This is an ugly situation they cultivated! And a lot of women have been unfairly stung by it.
Finally, why should any Ottawa SP trust the police when they can't even catch a guy who pulls a gun on one of their undercover officers, posing as a streetwalker.
Talk about the keystone cops!
The hotline will no doubt be good for publicity -- make it look like they actually care and are doing something -- but will it really do any good for sex workers? I doubt it. Ottawa police have never really taken the well-being of sexworkers into account. There's always something more important, like pulblicity. I have trouble believing that they care about the safety of SPs at all.
..c..
On several occasions in the past, police have been loose lipped with the press that they got ahold of client records and that they might become public. The end result of this was that many Ottawa hobbyists decided to make like turtles and become anonymous. How exactly did this make anything better? This has only served to make it riskier for many of us. Now Ottawa SPs have trouble distinguishing between legit customers and serial sex criminals because they ALL want to be anonymous. This is a bad situation that the Ottawa police have actively made worse through their own poor judgment and lack of understanding of our circumstances.
The Ottawa police turn a blind eye to rampant blatant advertising of incalls and massage "plus" services, but make indiscriminate occasional busts. How can anyone abide by the law when it's spottily enforced, and when there's pressure to break the law to compete? This is an ugly situation they cultivated! And a lot of women have been unfairly stung by it.
Finally, why should any Ottawa SP trust the police when they can't even catch a guy who pulls a gun on one of their undercover officers, posing as a streetwalker.
Talk about the keystone cops!
The hotline will no doubt be good for publicity -- make it look like they actually care and are doing something -- but will it really do any good for sex workers? I doubt it. Ottawa police have never really taken the well-being of sexworkers into account. There's always something more important, like pulblicity. I have trouble believing that they care about the safety of SPs at all.
..c..
I wonder if it would be possible to get a clear statement from the police chief about this issue: if a prostitute files a complaint against an attacker, and admits by doing so, that she(he) has been solliciting in public, will she be charged by her own admission? That would either put a halt to the program, or else reassure sex-workers that the system has their protection at heart. I don't think that this has ever been done in the past, and I think it's worth a try. Rather than an individual sticking her neck out, it might be better for the organisation defending sex-workers rights to do so. It would reveal the police's real intentions. Any ideas?
Last edited:
Exactly what rights do you think the police think sex workers have?
I guess my point is, if it weren't for the embarrassment over having allowed a gun-brandishing offender who thought he was dealing with a streetwalker to get away scot free, why would they even be doing this? I mean, is it like they suddenly have a new awareness of the dangers streetwalkers in Ottawa face?? How can that be when we've had so many murders of streetwalkers here go unsolved?
No, I have trouble believing that Ottawa police care about our safety at all. Streetwalkers, by the very nature of their process, expose themselves to risks -- their customers are pretty much anonymous and that's why people who murder streetwalkers get away with their crimes for so long before being caught, if they're ever EVEN caught.
But what pisses me off is that the Ottawa police have -- perhaps out of a sense of a duty to enforce or impose morality?? I can't see any other reason -- done things that have placed other Ottawa sex workers at the same level of risk that Ottawa streetwalkers face. They've done this by making noises in the media about exposing client lists when busting agencies or massage or incall operations.
My question is, why is this necessary?? Do they understand the damage they do when they do that?? Do they know how much they've changed things here in Ottawa? Do they know that escorts who, for many years, could count on customers agreeing to verify suddenly are forced to deal with guys who insist on being "anonymous," phoning from payphones and what have you, directly as a result of their pointless publicity???
I am floored whenever they do this. I wonder if the Ottawa Police view the more important job as being to prevent consenting adults from seeking or offering sexual services, over and above reducing the circumstances that promote violence. Perhaps they don't mind cleaning up murdered sex workers.
There've been some really irresponsible things that the Ottawa police have done over the past few years. If they really care about the safety of sex workers, then they'd stop making our customers feel that they have to sneak around with the stealth of serial killers.
When escorts and massage workers start ending up on slabs in the morgue, they're going to have some questions to answer.
..c..
I guess my point is, if it weren't for the embarrassment over having allowed a gun-brandishing offender who thought he was dealing with a streetwalker to get away scot free, why would they even be doing this? I mean, is it like they suddenly have a new awareness of the dangers streetwalkers in Ottawa face?? How can that be when we've had so many murders of streetwalkers here go unsolved?
No, I have trouble believing that Ottawa police care about our safety at all. Streetwalkers, by the very nature of their process, expose themselves to risks -- their customers are pretty much anonymous and that's why people who murder streetwalkers get away with their crimes for so long before being caught, if they're ever EVEN caught.
But what pisses me off is that the Ottawa police have -- perhaps out of a sense of a duty to enforce or impose morality?? I can't see any other reason -- done things that have placed other Ottawa sex workers at the same level of risk that Ottawa streetwalkers face. They've done this by making noises in the media about exposing client lists when busting agencies or massage or incall operations.
My question is, why is this necessary?? Do they understand the damage they do when they do that?? Do they know how much they've changed things here in Ottawa? Do they know that escorts who, for many years, could count on customers agreeing to verify suddenly are forced to deal with guys who insist on being "anonymous," phoning from payphones and what have you, directly as a result of their pointless publicity???
I am floored whenever they do this. I wonder if the Ottawa Police view the more important job as being to prevent consenting adults from seeking or offering sexual services, over and above reducing the circumstances that promote violence. Perhaps they don't mind cleaning up murdered sex workers.
There've been some really irresponsible things that the Ottawa police have done over the past few years. If they really care about the safety of sex workers, then they'd stop making our customers feel that they have to sneak around with the stealth of serial killers.
When escorts and massage workers start ending up on slabs in the morgue, they're going to have some questions to answer.
..c..
"Exactly what rights do you think the police think sex workers have?" I know this sounds utopian, but everyone has a right not to be assaulted, and it's the police's duty to enforce that. They're also accountable to the politicians. There are idiots in every organization, even the police, and some of these idiots have command responsibilities. Maybe this hotline is a publicity stunt, or a sham for nailing prostitutes. But before giving up altogether, why don't you humour them and call the officer (Det. David Christie) in the sexual assault unit who helped set up the hot line, and tell him of you concerns? Unless he actually works for the morality squad, why would he otherwise waste his time on the hotline? I think that it's in everybody's interest to rid us of violent predators. If there's a lack of trust, why not take the first step and have a chat. It would clear the air one way or the other. I would be interested in what he says.
Then maybe you should phone him.
Myself? I've never counted on the police to protect me. But I am seriously annoyed that they seem to keep coming up with ways to foil my efforts to protect myself.
I have no problem with the police in general. When I ran Lyla's List, I was very happy to turn over to them anything that was their purview -- specifically anyone making any noises about sex with underaged persons. As a skydiver, I jumped with many cops over the years -- so it's not like I have a problem with them in general.
I just wish that they would take a broader view with respect to our safety. It goes like this:
The more anonymous to us our customers are, the less safe we are. Because we have no way of telling the difference between some guy who is simply trying to cover his ass and protect his personal situation and a serial predator. Both will try to be anonymous if they feel it's in their best interest to be.
We escorts try very hard to alleviate the concerns of decent customers, to let them know it's safe to verify with us -- we're only concerned with our own safety and security. Nothing more.
And, in general, our customers are reasonable, rational people who understand the logic of that argument....
... until some idiot cop or prosecutor starts yapping it up in the press about how they seized customer details in some raid, and fearmongering that the customers can look forward to exposure.
As I've said before, that makes the average customer worry that he's going to be exposed. And that, in turn, makes him reluctant to give us the information we need to separate him from the bad guys.
Making up a "bad customer" list won't do any good if everyone on it is anonymous. What???? Are we supposed to avoid anyone with brown hair, brown eyes who goes by the name of "John" and calls from a payphone?? Think about it! It just doesn't work!
The best way to ensure our safety is to promote verification. And the best way to promote verification is for the cops to get on-board, and to view any client info seized in any raid as "off limits." I don't see how this is so much to ask. They've never really used such information to any advantage, and yet, to allow us to have it brings benefits that no amount of policing can offer.
The police really need to get on board with the spirit of the criminal code and forget about policing some version of morality. They need to stick to protecting individuals from exploitation and protecting community standards -- after all, if you read the Criminal Code of Canada, that is the intention! The police have no place trying to discourage people from using our services -- and ESPECIALLY NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF OUR SAFETY!!!!
If there's one thing I wish the Ottawa Police would acknowledge, it's that the safety of any one SP outweighs any moral engineering they might accomplish by threatening our customers (... which isn't much anyway!).
You say that we can phone up the police and talk to them -- but you know what?? We're not salaried employeess! We're making our livings out here!! If they really want to find some way to work out the best possible solution, they could phone or e-mail us. We advertise, you know! Myself personally, I haven't noticed them making any effort to run anything by us.
..c..
Myself? I've never counted on the police to protect me. But I am seriously annoyed that they seem to keep coming up with ways to foil my efforts to protect myself.
I have no problem with the police in general. When I ran Lyla's List, I was very happy to turn over to them anything that was their purview -- specifically anyone making any noises about sex with underaged persons. As a skydiver, I jumped with many cops over the years -- so it's not like I have a problem with them in general.
I just wish that they would take a broader view with respect to our safety. It goes like this:
The more anonymous to us our customers are, the less safe we are. Because we have no way of telling the difference between some guy who is simply trying to cover his ass and protect his personal situation and a serial predator. Both will try to be anonymous if they feel it's in their best interest to be.
We escorts try very hard to alleviate the concerns of decent customers, to let them know it's safe to verify with us -- we're only concerned with our own safety and security. Nothing more.
And, in general, our customers are reasonable, rational people who understand the logic of that argument....
... until some idiot cop or prosecutor starts yapping it up in the press about how they seized customer details in some raid, and fearmongering that the customers can look forward to exposure.
As I've said before, that makes the average customer worry that he's going to be exposed. And that, in turn, makes him reluctant to give us the information we need to separate him from the bad guys.
Making up a "bad customer" list won't do any good if everyone on it is anonymous. What???? Are we supposed to avoid anyone with brown hair, brown eyes who goes by the name of "John" and calls from a payphone?? Think about it! It just doesn't work!
The best way to ensure our safety is to promote verification. And the best way to promote verification is for the cops to get on-board, and to view any client info seized in any raid as "off limits." I don't see how this is so much to ask. They've never really used such information to any advantage, and yet, to allow us to have it brings benefits that no amount of policing can offer.
The police really need to get on board with the spirit of the criminal code and forget about policing some version of morality. They need to stick to protecting individuals from exploitation and protecting community standards -- after all, if you read the Criminal Code of Canada, that is the intention! The police have no place trying to discourage people from using our services -- and ESPECIALLY NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF OUR SAFETY!!!!
If there's one thing I wish the Ottawa Police would acknowledge, it's that the safety of any one SP outweighs any moral engineering they might accomplish by threatening our customers (... which isn't much anyway!).
You say that we can phone up the police and talk to them -- but you know what?? We're not salaried employeess! We're making our livings out here!! If they really want to find some way to work out the best possible solution, they could phone or e-mail us. We advertise, you know! Myself personally, I haven't noticed them making any effort to run anything by us.
..c..
Have you ever wondered why no one has ever made any of those "lists" public? Because they can'tJoyfulC said:
They do however have every right to contact everyone on that list while investigating a crime.
The best way to ensure your safety is to change the laws in Canada. I think you should stop blaming the police, they obviously are not perfect, but the last time I checked it seems to be the politicians who set their agenda.
Sorry, but I can't agree with that.
Actually the laws in Canada's Criminal Code are more than reasonable. I'd be more than happy to abide by them.
It's the police that don't seem to want to enforce them.
For example, the law regarding common bawdy house. When I first came to Ottawa, no SP would dare to advertise incall. That's not to say that incall wasn't done -- it was! -- but it was a privilege offered to known clients, to people who knew one another. This was actually a good situation for all of us because unknown clients had to make arrangements for outcall (either a location that could be verified -- such as their homes -- or a hotel room) until such time as they were known and trusted well enough to be invited to partake of incall. And at the point that occurred, we knew them well enough to know who we were dealing with. It was safe for us; safe for them.
Other than that, there are no laws that we have issues with. If the police would enforce the laws in the Criminal Code, IMO, we would all be better off.
But the problem is, they don't. At least not evenly. Sure, they occasionally bust someone on a bawdy house violation -- but meanwhile, there are dozens of bawdy houses openly advertising.
The laws, as they stand, are just fine. The problem is the way the police enforce them and also the way that the police and the crown interpret them to the media.
Again, I have to ask, what is the goal here? To impose a set morality upon Ottawa society?? Or to prevent problems of a criminal nature, such as assault and murder??
If it's the latter, then I would implore the police to please -- PLEASE!! -- think twice about threatening our legitimate customers. We need these guys to verify with us so we have some insurance, so to speak. We need to be able to tell the difference between the guys who are trying to get away with something and those who are just looking for some harmless diversion.
Please, please, don't threaten that!
..c..
Actually the laws in Canada's Criminal Code are more than reasonable. I'd be more than happy to abide by them.
It's the police that don't seem to want to enforce them.
For example, the law regarding common bawdy house. When I first came to Ottawa, no SP would dare to advertise incall. That's not to say that incall wasn't done -- it was! -- but it was a privilege offered to known clients, to people who knew one another. This was actually a good situation for all of us because unknown clients had to make arrangements for outcall (either a location that could be verified -- such as their homes -- or a hotel room) until such time as they were known and trusted well enough to be invited to partake of incall. And at the point that occurred, we knew them well enough to know who we were dealing with. It was safe for us; safe for them.
Other than that, there are no laws that we have issues with. If the police would enforce the laws in the Criminal Code, IMO, we would all be better off.
But the problem is, they don't. At least not evenly. Sure, they occasionally bust someone on a bawdy house violation -- but meanwhile, there are dozens of bawdy houses openly advertising.
The laws, as they stand, are just fine. The problem is the way the police enforce them and also the way that the police and the crown interpret them to the media.
Again, I have to ask, what is the goal here? To impose a set morality upon Ottawa society?? Or to prevent problems of a criminal nature, such as assault and murder??
If it's the latter, then I would implore the police to please -- PLEASE!! -- think twice about threatening our legitimate customers. We need these guys to verify with us so we have some insurance, so to speak. We need to be able to tell the difference between the guys who are trying to get away with something and those who are just looking for some harmless diversion.
Please, please, don't threaten that!
..c..
I am not familiar with Ottawa, but here in the GTA it is the politicians who usually decide what the flavour of the day is, whether it is holistic centres in Toronto or MP's in York Region.JoyfulC said:
Regardless, the police are neither the problem or the solution. If you really want change it starts with the politicians.
I kind of expected you to say that. Sorry but I'm not an SP, and have nothing to gain. But I thought that perhaps you might. They also won't contact you on their own if it's not for an investigation, because it might be interpreted by some as harassment.JoyfulC said:
However, I agree with most of your points. There seems to be some (chiefs included) who want to make a name for themselves, and forget what the overall goal is: the protection of the public (including sex workers). I also agree with dreamer. The politicians have a big influence over the police. After all, the police are funded through the municipal budget. Politicians will try to have the police act on public perceptions, or even politicians' own agendas. So on the policy level, the cops have to be seen doing something to appease the press and certain sectors of society; that's probably why they do the odd raid on alledged bawy houses, while ignoring the rest of them.
I still think that it's worth a try. What do you have to lose, especially if you call from a pay phone? The police dept is a big outfit, with departments often competing against each other. It could be to your advantage.
I would disagree that it would be harassment for the police to open consultations with sex workers. Other enforcement bodies in Canada routinely consult with the industries they monitor -- for example, Transport Canada works closely with the aviation industry. I know that for a fact because I used to represent my sport association on two of their technical committees.
I'm also not worried about calling from my own phone. I've been in Ottawa and working and advertising here since the late 80s. I'm pretty sure they know exactly who and where I am. And since I've never had any problems with them, I am also reasonably sure that they don't have any problems with me either.
Frankly, it is surprising that they never contact us or try to learn anything about us. A couple years back, a friend of mine agreed to be interviewed on camera (unfortunately with her face blacked out -- which I can understand from one perspective, but it does make us look "shady" despite her assurances that she felt what she was doing was wholesome and worthwhile). Right after they interviewed her, they cut to a uniformed cop, and he stands there and contradicts everything she just said. His phrasing suggested that he didn't acknowledge that there was any kind of sex worker except streetwalkers, and he basically summed us up as a bunch of pitiful losers who are doing this because we don't have any other choice. So even though the reporter swore up and down that she was trying to show our side of the story and educate the public about us, the story came out to be the usual old stigma-reinforcing bullshit. And the cops played their role to a tee.
I think bad client lists help some streetwalkers feel that they have some outlet -- they can report someone -- but I have never seen them to be very effective. Now, mind you, I never worked on the street and so I have no first hand knowledge. With respect to escorts, which I am, I am reminded of the old saying, "give a man a fish and he'll eat today; teach him to fish and he'll never go hungry again." I think it would be better for us to have ways of proactively recognizing and avoiding bad clients -- such as recognizing the behaviours and methods of dangerous predators -- and if the police really wanted to help us, they could probably do wonders in this way. But since they don't even feel that it's appropriate to open a dialogue with us, then I guess we'll just continue doing the best we can without their help.
And really, with the exception of the streetwalkers, we do a fairly good job of avoiding problems.
..c..
I'm also not worried about calling from my own phone. I've been in Ottawa and working and advertising here since the late 80s. I'm pretty sure they know exactly who and where I am. And since I've never had any problems with them, I am also reasonably sure that they don't have any problems with me either.
Frankly, it is surprising that they never contact us or try to learn anything about us. A couple years back, a friend of mine agreed to be interviewed on camera (unfortunately with her face blacked out -- which I can understand from one perspective, but it does make us look "shady" despite her assurances that she felt what she was doing was wholesome and worthwhile). Right after they interviewed her, they cut to a uniformed cop, and he stands there and contradicts everything she just said. His phrasing suggested that he didn't acknowledge that there was any kind of sex worker except streetwalkers, and he basically summed us up as a bunch of pitiful losers who are doing this because we don't have any other choice. So even though the reporter swore up and down that she was trying to show our side of the story and educate the public about us, the story came out to be the usual old stigma-reinforcing bullshit. And the cops played their role to a tee.
I think bad client lists help some streetwalkers feel that they have some outlet -- they can report someone -- but I have never seen them to be very effective. Now, mind you, I never worked on the street and so I have no first hand knowledge. With respect to escorts, which I am, I am reminded of the old saying, "give a man a fish and he'll eat today; teach him to fish and he'll never go hungry again." I think it would be better for us to have ways of proactively recognizing and avoiding bad clients -- such as recognizing the behaviours and methods of dangerous predators -- and if the police really wanted to help us, they could probably do wonders in this way. But since they don't even feel that it's appropriate to open a dialogue with us, then I guess we'll just continue doing the best we can without their help.
And really, with the exception of the streetwalkers, we do a fairly good job of avoiding problems.
..c..
