Another example of "indiscriminate murder" in Pakistani/Afghan border villages?

[rogerstaubach]

Another example of "indiscriminate murder" in Pakistani/Afghan border villages?

Mar. 4, 2006. 03:41 PM
ASSOCIATED PRESS


MIRAN SHAH, Pakistan — Helicopter gunships fired on pro-Taliban tribesmen who clashed with security forces today near the Afghan border, leaving at least 49 people dead, in the aftermath of a military strike on a suspected militant hide-out.

Maj.-Gen. Shaukat Sultan, the army spokesman, said 25 militants were killed in Miran Shah and 21 in Mir Ali, but he added the toll could be higher than that. Three security forces also died and about 10 were wounded, he said.

Intercepts of radio communications between militants involved in the fighting in the towns of Miran Shah and Mir Ali in North Waziristan tribal region suggested 80 or more fighters had died, security and intelligence officials said on condition of anonymity because they weren’t authorized to comment to media.

The violence came as U.S. President George W. Bush visited the capital, Islamabad, about 300 kilometres to the northeast, and voiced solidarity with Pakistan’s President Gen. Pervez Musharraf in fighting terrorism.



21 to 80 less killers are now unavailable to infiltrate into Afghanistan from there safe havens in Pakistan in their bid to kill Afghani men, women and children, Afghan and coalition security forces including Canadian soldiers.

I used the loaded "indiscriminate murder" label used by others on this board to highlight the fallacy of their beliefs that "indiscriminate murder" is being practiced by those who wish stop the infiltration of killers from Pakistan in Afghanistan. When infact the opposite is true.

 

[slowpoke]

Mar. 4, 2006. 03:41 PM
ASSOCIATED PRESS

MIRAN SHAH, Pakistan — Helicopter gunships fired on pro-Taliban tribesmen who clashed with security forces today near the Afghan border, leaving at least 49 people dead, in the aftermath of a military strike on a suspected militant hide-out.

Maj.-Gen. Shaukat Sultan, the army spokesman, said 25 militants were killed in Miran Shah and 21 in Mir Ali, but he added the toll could be higher than that. Three security forces also died and about 10 were wounded, he said.

Intercepts of radio communications between militants involved in the fighting in the towns of Miran Shah and Mir Ali in North Waziristan tribal region suggested 80 or more fighters had died, security and intelligence officials said on condition of anonymity because they weren’t authorized to comment to media.

The violence came as U.S. President George W. Bush visited the capital, Islamabad, about 300 kilometres to the northeast, and voiced solidarity with Pakistan’s President Gen. Pervez Musharraf in fighting terrorism.



21 to 80 less killers are now unavailable to infiltrate into Afghanistan from there safe havens in Pakistan in their bid to kill Afghani men, women and children, Afghan and coalition security forces including Canadian soldiers.

I used the loaded "indiscriminate murder" label used by others on this board to highlight the fallacy of their beliefs that "indiscriminate murder" is being practiced by those who wish stop the infiltration of killers from Pakistan in Afghanistan. When infact the opposite is true.

Why do you try to apply "indiscriminate and murder" to this situation? This was an act of war. BTW, you might have included the simple fact that it was Pakistani forces who engaged these tribesmen after the tribesmen had attacked security forces. This is what really happened:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/04/AR2006030401337.html

Pakistan Strikes Again in Tribal Area
Associated Press
Sunday, March 5, 2006; Page A19


"MIRAN SHAH, Pakistan, March 4 -- Pakistan's army retaliated with helicopter gunships and artillery after pro-Taliban tribesmen clashed with security forces Saturday near the Afghan border. At least 49 people were killed in the fighting, a spokesman said.

Anger has been stirring among the tribesmen since a military strike on a suspected al-Qaeda camp earlier this week in the nearby village of Saidgi.

Maj. Gen. Shaukat Sultan, the army spokesman, said 25 militants were killed in Miran Shah and 21 in Mir Ali, but he added the toll could be higher. Three government troops also died and about 10 were wounded, he said.

Intercepts of radio communications between militants involved in the fighting in the towns of Miran Shah and Mir Ali in the North Waziristan tribal region suggested 80 or more fighters had died, security and intelligence officials said on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the news media.".....

There is no mention of innocent women or children being killed here. Just plain ordinary fighting where both sides can see who they're killing. Not indiscriminate and not murder. There is a vast difference between this type of military engagement and the recent CIA-orchestrated attack on the village of Damadola where the US sent in an unmanned predator drone to launch missiles into 3 houses that were several hundred yards apart - all because US' intelligence heard that a high ranking AQ member had been invited to dinner there. The AQ target didn't show up but that didn't prevent the US from killing 5 women and 5 children in their attempted assassination.

 

[rogerstaubach]

Why do you try to apply "indiscriminate and murder" to this situation? This was an act of war. BTW, you might have included the simple fact that it was Pakistani forces who engaged these tribesmen after the tribesmen had attacked security forces. This is what really happened:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/04/AR2006030401337.html

Pakistan Strikes Again in Tribal Area
Associated Press
Sunday, March 5, 2006; Page A19


"MIRAN SHAH, Pakistan, March 4 -- Pakistan's army retaliated with helicopter gunships and artillery after pro-Taliban tribesmen clashed with security forces Saturday near the Afghan border. At least 49 people were killed in the fighting, a spokesman said.

Anger has been stirring among the tribesmen since a military strike on a suspected al-Qaeda camp earlier this week in the nearby village of Saidgi.

Maj. Gen. Shaukat Sultan, the army spokesman, said 25 militants were killed in Miran Shah and 21 in Mir Ali, but he added the toll could be higher. Three government troops also died and about 10 were wounded, he said.

Intercepts of radio communications between militants involved in the fighting in the towns of Miran Shah and Mir Ali in the North Waziristan tribal region suggested 80 or more fighters had died, security and intelligence officials said on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the news media.".....

There is no mention of innocent women or children being killed here. Just plain ordinary fighting where both sides can see who they're killing. Not indiscriminate and not murder. There is a vast difference between this type of military engagement and the recent CIA-orchestrated attack on the village of Damadola where the US sent in an unmanned predator drone to launch missiles into 3 houses that were several hundred yards apart - all because US' intelligence heard that a high ranking AQ member had been invited to dinner there. The AQ target didn't show up but that didn't prevent the US from killing 5 women and 5 children in their attempted assassination.

Why are you NOW so concerned with the use of an "incendiary and inflammatory" loaded label such as "indiscriminate murder"? Apparently, the use of loaded labels is a singular subjective term to you and to by employed solely by you?

You appear to wholeheartedly agree with and provide credence to Pakistani military, intelligence and gov't officals when they state it was "just militants who were killed", yet you question the value of their intelligence information(you quaintly phrased it as rumor) when it is provided to American security forces.

Why the willful double-standard on two essentially similar intelligence and security matters? Why the extra heap of "personal scorn" on Americans when they are basing their targeted strikes on the same Pakistani intel?

Are you aware of the risk analysis that any targeted strike undergoes? These decisions are not taken indisrciminately, are not decided in a vacuum and are not based on rumor or slaphappy intel as you opine.

 

[slowpoke]

Why are you NOW so concerned with the use of an "incendiary and inflammatory" loaded label such as "indiscriminate murder"? Apparently, the use of loaded labels is a singular subjective term to you and to by employed solely by you?

You appear to wholeheartedly agree with and provide credence to Pakistani military, intelligence and gov't officals when they state it was "just militants who were killed", yet you question the value of their intelligence information(you quaintly phrased it as rumor) when it is provided to American security forces.

Why the willful double-standard on two essentially similar intelligence and security matters? Why the extra heap of "personal scorn" on Americans when they are basing their targeted strikes on the same Pakistani intel?

Are you aware of the risk analysis that any targeted strike undergoes? These decisions are not taken indisrciminately, are not decided in a vacuum and are not based on rumor or slaphappy intel as you opine.

Actually I assumed that the Pakistani military would make every attempt to take out only the insurgents. This wouldn't be too difficult since the Pakistanis were close enough to their opponents to see that they were armed etc. and to shoot them. I don't see any intellegence similarities between this and the ill-fated CIA assassination attempt which killed 5 women and 5 children in Damadola. In this case, the Pakistanis were retaliating for earlier clashes between tribal insurgents and security forces in that same area. So I don't think it was much of an intelligence stretch for the Pakistani military to go back there with artillery (ground troops) and helicopters and engage those same insurgents.

Damadola was different insofar as it was based on hearsay intelligence which led the US to believe that an AQ operative had been invited to a dinner inside a compound in that village. The US sent an unmanned predator drone which fired missiles into 3 buildings inside this compound. These buildings were approximately 600 to 900 feet apart. The US couldn't see their target so they had to hit multiple buildings in the hope that the target would be inside one of them. So the US approach was to basically kill everyone in the area to be sure they got their man even though they couldn't be sure he'd even shown up. Very indiscriminate and very different from your above example where the Pakistani military could see who they were attacking.