It’s now been 6 years since the pandemic started and I have just 1 question!

Ibble Obble

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Feb 6, 2026
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shutting down the economy had a much longer lasting damage than the debate over vaccines. productivity also dwindled over remote work than physically in the work place...there were massive lay offs that happened because of it.
I work in an industry in which productivity actually improved through remote working. It was a mixed bag effect depending on your industry.

Sitting at my desk working on a computer in the office is the exact same thing without the distraction of ridiculous wasteful human interactions and office drama.

Efficientcy went up.

Billables went up.

Bonuses whet up.

It was a win for some of us.

I say this working from my home office.
 
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greensquare

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We all wish Covid hadn’t happened, but no, I don’t believe 1 out of 200 deaths, heavily weighted toward those with relatively decreased life expectancy, was worth shutting the economy down for as long as we did, or making as many fundamental changes to society as we did.

Just my opinion, but it is a reasoned one. Vaccine or not, the world did start to function again even though deaths were occurring. And deaths still happen, even with respect to Covid. Like women selling sex, there is always a number. I think society should continue to function at a 0.6 percent risk of death, with reasonable precautions and protections for the most vulnerable. But I realize others would disagree.
If the economy didn't shutdown we'd probably most likely be in a worse situation with Covid19 compared to now and vaccines.

1 out of 200 deaths now leaning towards those with already decreased life expectancy isn't really something to shrug about. Spanish flu mostly effected young folks to die compared to the elderly. Covid19 was more so the opposite. Without shutting down the economy if Covid19 blew up more deaths would have happened.

Should we just shrug and say people over 50 or 60 with signs of decreased life expectancy aren't really a concern because their time would have eventually come a bit sooner regardless of some pandemic? I think no. In the span of 2 years in Ontario the economy with its restrictions for non-essential didn't seem that long IMO.
 

MilaniCarmelo

previously Melissa Carter
Supporting Member
You seem to have a great head on your shoulder. Glad to hear you had an operation done and it fixed your health issues. Do you still think the vaccine caused those health issues? Or perhaps something about your lifestyle close to getting the vax caused them? Smoking? Drinking? Eating certain things? Etc.
Im not a doctor or medical professional so I cannot say for certain. I can only use deductive reasoning. Here is what I’ve gathered:

1. There was a lot of studies done showing evidence that the vaccine drastically progressed some underlying issues people had.

2. I live a healthy and active lifestyle and there are many other cases where completely healthy individuals (some were personal trainers and military personnel) who eat clean, go to the gym and never touched a cigarette or drop of liquor in their life had either drastically deteriorated in health or DIED only a few weeks or months after getting jabbed.

3. Doctors and other healthcare professionals across the GLOBE were fired or punished in some way for speaking out against the vaccine. Their findings were ignored instead of further researched. They were told not to suggest a healthy lifestyle to boost immunity and that ONLY the jab works. They weren’t even allowed to suggest it in CONJUNCTION with taking the vaccine. They were only allowed to push the vaccine and nothing else.

4. My health issue could have been treatable with medication if the issue wasn’t growing at such an alarming rate that left my doctors scratching their heads. We tried medication and it did nothing to stop or slow it down and so the last resort was surgery.

5. I was Covid free for almost 2 years without a vaccine (because it hadn’t come out yet and when it did it wasn’t mandatory yet). As soon as the vaccine became mandatory and I had my second dose of it, I suddenly caught Covid not long afterwards despite following all the restrictions to the letter and being “immunized” by a vaccine that was “guaranteed” to work. “Heard immunity” should have been in effect too since everyone at work already had their vaccines and I never went anywhere except home (where I live alone) and work (where I was an essential worker.)

6. Once I recovered from Covid I was blackmailed by my civi job to take a booster otherwise I could not come back to work. So I did.

7. Each time I got poked I was ill, in pain and constantly dizzy. I was never the same after that.

8. A few weeks after the booster I was rushed to the hospital and I knew something was seriously wrong with my body. After testing they told me what I had and that it was treatable which brings me right back to point # 4.

I don’t know for 100% certainty that the vax did this to me and I don’t know for 100% certainty that the vax didn’t do this to me. Again I’m not a doctor. I just know that normally 1 + 1 = 2 and not 11… however the loophole is that if you put two 1’s beside each other it technically does make an 11 right? So I say this to say it’s complicated… and there’s no definitive answer. With all of that being said this is just a detailed account of my timeline leading up to my diagnosis and I have to just leave it at that for people to use their own logic and deductive reasoning and produce their own conclusions.
 
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Ibble Obble

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Feb 6, 2026
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Im not a doctor or medical professional so I cannot say for certain. I can only use deductive reasoning. Here is what I’ve gathered:

I think there are two separate things here, and it’s important not to confuse them.

First, I don’t doubt your experience. You became seriously ill, the timing followed vaccination, and I can completely understand why that would make you question whether the two were connected. I also don’t think anyone here can tell you that the vaccine definitely didn’t contribute to your particular medical condition without knowing your diagnosis and medical history.

But there are a few factual things worth clearing up.

COVID vaccines can cause adverse events. Some rare serious ones were identified, including myocarditis/pericarditis and, with the AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson vaccines, a particular type of dangerous clotting disorder. Those associations were discovered because researchers investigated reports and compared the frequency and pattern of illness with what would normally occur in the population.

That’s the important distinction.

Someone becoming ill after vaccination establishes a timeline. It doesn’t, by itself, establish what caused the illness. The same applies to healthy soldiers, personal trainers or people who don’t drink or smoke. Unfortunately, healthy people develop serious illnesses too. To establish that a vaccine is causing a particular condition, you need to determine whether that condition occurs more frequently in vaccinated people than would otherwise be expected.

We now have more than five years of safety monitoring involving billions of vaccine doses. That research has identified genuine vaccine risks, but it hasn’t shown a general pattern of COVID vaccination causing widespread unexplained deterioration in otherwise healthy people.

There’s also nothing unusual about catching COVID after being vaccinated. The vaccines were never 100% effective at preventing infection, protection against infection waned, and later variants became increasingly capable of infecting vaccinated people. Their strongest and most persistent benefit was reducing severe illness, hospitalization and death.

And herd immunity doesn’t mean everyone in a vaccinated workplace becomes incapable of transmitting the virus. In fact, as the virus evolved and immunity against infection waned, that kind of sterilizing population immunity became unrealistic.

So I think the most scientifically defensible part of what you wrote is actually this:

You don’t know whether the vaccine caused your illness.

Your experience gives you a perfectly reasonable reason to ask the question. But your timeline alone can’t answer it.

If you’re genuinely trying to find out, the most useful information would be your actual diagnosis and whether that specific condition has been studied following COVID vaccination. That’s something evidence can potentially answer much better than either of us trying to deduce causation from timing.
 
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richaceg

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Feb 11, 2009
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I work in an industry in which productivity actually improved through remote working. It was a mixed bag effect depending on your industry.

Sitting at my desk working on a computer in the office is the exact same thing without the distraction of ridiculous wasteful human interactions and office drama.

Efficientcy went up.

Billables went up.

Bonuses when up.

It was a win for some of us.

I say this working from my home office.
sure some office work might benefit from that...but a plant that runs 3 shifts with more than 100 employees can't afford to halt production because of COVID. not based on a virus that the mortality rate was inconclusive. media and politicians were in full force scaring the shit out of the public. that pandemic is what did Justin in. he handled it horribly.
 

MadGeek

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Jul 17, 2011
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Speaking of Covid. I wished the mods hadn't deleted that thread back in Feb. 2020 about what was going in Wuhan/China at the start of Covid. I forget who put all together but it would have been interesting to look at all these years later.
 
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MilaniCarmelo

previously Melissa Carter
Supporting Member
I think there are two separate things here, and it’s important not to confuse them.

First, I don’t doubt your experience. You became seriously ill, the timing followed vaccination, and I can completely understand why that would make you question whether the two were connected. I also don’t think anyone here can tell you that the vaccine definitely didn’t contribute to your particular medical condition without knowing your diagnosis and medical history.

But there are a few factual things worth clearing up.

COVID vaccines can cause adverse events. Some rare serious ones were identified, including myocarditis/pericarditis and, with the AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson vaccines, a particular type of dangerous clotting disorder. Those associations were discovered because researchers investigated reports and compared the frequency and pattern of illness with what would normally occur in the population.

That’s the important distinction.

Someone becoming ill after vaccination establishes a timeline. It doesn’t, by itself, establish what caused the illness. The same applies to healthy soldiers, personal trainers or people who don’t drink or smoke. Unfortunately, healthy people develop serious illnesses too. To establish that a vaccine is causing a particular condition, you need to determine whether that condition occurs more frequently in vaccinated people than would otherwise be expected.

We now have more than five years of safety monitoring involving billions of vaccine doses. That research has identified genuine vaccine risks, but it hasn’t shown a general pattern of COVID vaccination causing widespread unexplained deterioration in otherwise healthy people.

There’s also nothing unusual about catching COVID after being vaccinated. The vaccines were never 100% effective at preventing infection, protection against infection waned, and later variants became increasingly capable of infecting vaccinated people. Their strongest and most persistent benefit was reducing severe illness, hospitalization and death.

And herd immunity doesn’t mean everyone in a vaccinated workplace becomes incapable of transmitting the virus. In fact, as the virus evolved and immunity against infection waned, that kind of sterilizing population immunity became unrealistic.

So I think the most scientifically defensible part of what you wrote is actually this:

You don’t know whether the vaccine caused your illness.

Your experience gives you a perfectly reasonable reason to ask the question. But your timeline alone can’t answer it.

If you’re genuinely trying to find out, the most useful information would be your actual diagnosis and whether that specific condition has been studied following COVID vaccination. That’s something evidence can potentially answer much better than either of us trying to deduce causation from timing.
I appreciate your insight! Thank you for your response and you’re absolutely correct about everything you said. I just want to be clear though that when I mentioned healthy individuals who were vaxxed and mentioning my health I was simply answering the questions of the person I was replying to when they asked me “are you sure it wasn’t your lifestyle that caused your condition? Smoking? Drinking?” To which I’d say the answer is no and offered cases outside of myself because an unhealthy lifestyle didn’t contribute to their complications either. That’s why I mentioned that part.

Also you’re right my timeline can’t answer it. It is simply a timeline and conjecture but definitely NOT solid proof of anything.

So to be clear I’m NOT saying the vaccine definitely caused my issues but the timeline IS coincidental and would raise speculation for anybody IMO

Also many doctors who pushed the vaccine publicly GUARANTEED people that they were 100% safe and that they 100% would not catch Covid if they did. I remember seeing that on the news once. Obviously I know that isn’t true because nothing is ever certain in this field but I found it strange that a doctor would say as much with such confidence.
 
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greensquare

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Aug 23, 2026
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Refusal to adhere to health Canada guidelines makes you an antivaxxer in may peoples view.
No it doesn't.

Refusal for mandatory vaccine makes you one. For recommended vaccines if you refuse based on a conspiracy then you are antivaxxer. If you didn't get 1 or any Covid shots based on your own decision similar to me no longer getting the flu shots is totally different then buying into something that came across my social media feed.

If someone gets every single shot based on Health Canada's recommendation and they think others who don't get them are antivax then they have no clue what they are talking about. It's really no different than some Mormon or something saying people who use electronic devices aren't true Christians because it's the devil's work or a form of witchcraft.
 

MilaniCarmelo

previously Melissa Carter
Supporting Member
No it doesn't.

Refusal for mandatory vaccine makes you one. For recommended vaccines if you refuse based on a conspiracy then you are antivaxxer. If you didn't get 1 or any Covid shots based on your own decision similar to me no longer getting the flu shots is totally different then buying into something that came across my social media feed.

If someone gets every single shot based on Health Canada's recommendation and they think others who don't get them are antivax then they have no clue what they are talking about. It's really no different than some Mormon or something saying people who use electronic devices aren't true Christians because it's the devil's work or a form of witchcraft.
I personally believe vaccines work and have no issues taking them myself. However I was terrified to take the Covid vax specifically because there wasn’t enough data for me to make an informed decision about taking it at the time. Vaccines normally take 5 years of extensive testing and trials to be cleared and that wasn’t the case for this one.

I wanted to wait to take it and see how everyone else who were willing to take it reacted to it before I decided. I just wasn’t allowed to do that and I HAD to take it asap or I would’ve lost my job. 🥲
 

Ibble Obble

Active member
Feb 6, 2026
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I appreciate your insight!
That makes sense, and with that context I understand why you mentioned lifestyle and otherwise healthy people. If someone was suggesting smoking, drinking or poor health caused your condition, it’s entirely reasonable to point out that those risk factors weren’t present.

And frankly, I think we’re largely in agreement. Your timeline absolutely gives you a reason to wonder whether there was a connection. I’d wonder too. The important distinction is the one you’ve already made: it raises a question, but it can’t establish causation on its own.

You’re also right to criticize some of the messaging at the time. There were doctors and public officials who spoke far too absolutely about what vaccination would accomplish. Fauci, for example, described vaccinated people in 2021 as effectively becoming a “dead end” for the virus. Biden went even further and said vaccinated people weren’t going to get COVID. Those statements did not age well.

That isn’t the same as the scientific evidence saying the vaccines were 100% safe or 100% effective. The clinical trials never showed that, and no legitimate medical intervention can carry a 100% safety guarantee.

I actually think acknowledging that distinction matters. We don’t have to pretend every piece of public-health messaging during COVID was perfect in order to recognize that the vaccines were effective and saved lives. People were freaked. People said thing hoping it would help. It didn't.
 

Ibble Obble

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Feb 6, 2026
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sure some office work might benefit from that...but a plant that runs 3 shifts with more than 100 employees can't afford to halt production because of COVID. not based on a virus that the mortality rate was inconclusive. media and politicians were in full force scaring the shit out of the public. that pandemic is what did Justin in. he handled it horribly.
A factory can’t afford to halt production. Fair enough.

A factory also can’t afford to have COVID tear through three shifts of 100+ employees at the same time.

And “the mortality rate was inconclusive” isn’t much of an argument. Early in a novel outbreak, of course the exact mortality rate is uncertain. That’s precisely when governments have to make decisions under uncertainty about transmissibility, severity, hospital capacity and who is most vulnerable.

What was not inconclusive was that people were being hospitalized and dying in large numbers, and that outbreaks in workplaces, long-term care homes and households could spread quickly.

You can absolutely criticize individual restrictions. Some were inconsistent, some lasted too long, and some caused real economic and social damage.

But Canada was handed a horrible situation and, compared with many countries, handled it reasonably well.

And Trudeau did not personally impose every lockdown or business restriction in the country. Most of the measures people actually lived under were provincial. In Ontario, that meant Doug Ford’s government.

Canada also ended up with high vaccination uptake and substantially lower COVID mortality than the United States.

So there is a legitimate argument to be had about whether every measure was proportionate.

But “the media scared everyone, the mortality rate was inconclusive, and Trudeau handled it horribly” is not a serious assessment of what actually happened.

But I never expect you to be serious or have material facts at your disposal. You're a "feelings" and shoots from the hip kind of right winger.
 

Ibble Obble

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Feb 6, 2026
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sure some office work might benefit from that...but a plant that runs 3 shifts with more than 100 employees can't afford to halt production because of COVID. not based on a virus that the mortality rate was inconclusive. media and politicians were in full force scaring the shit out of the public. that pandemic is what did Justin in. he handled it horribly.
While we're at it, here are some facts you cannot deny.

By April 2022, Canada had recorded about 101 COVID deaths per 100,000 people. My 79-year-old father was one of them. I still remember his wife calling me, wailing on the phone.

The United States was at about 292 per 100,000.

So the U.S. COVID death rate was nearly three times higher than Canada’s.

You can argue about mandates. You can argue about lockdowns. You can argue that some restrictions went too far or lasted too long.

But you don’t get to say Canada “handled it horribly” and then ignore the outcome.

And yes, the Trudeau government gets some of the credit for that whether you like Trudeau or not. The federal government handled vaccine procurement, border measures, federal economic supports and national coordination, while the provinces handled many of the restrictions people actually lived under day to day.

It was a collective Canadian response. But blaming Trudeau for everything you disliked while refusing to give his government any credit for the parts that worked is just partisan nonsense.

Our closest neighbour lost people to COVID at roughly three times our per-capita rate.

So spare me the claim that Canada handled the pandemic horribly. The numbers say otherwise.
 

greensquare

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Aug 23, 2026
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You make good valid points. I did hear of healthy folks getting the jab and becoming ill and worse case dying. Seems rare, not sure what percentage. But if the flu shot or Covid vaccine, etc. got me really ill I'd def never get it again and if my job made it mandatory I'd def have no choice but to quit too.
 

richaceg

Well-known member
Feb 11, 2009
21,226
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A factory can’t afford to halt production. Fair enough.

A factory also can’t afford to have COVID tear through three shifts of 100+ employees at the same time.

And “the mortality rate was inconclusive” isn’t much of an argument. Early in a novel outbreak, of course the exact mortality rate is uncertain. That’s precisely when governments have to make decisions under uncertainty about transmissibility, severity, hospital capacity and who is most vulnerable.

What was not inconclusive was that people were being hospitalized and dying in large numbers, and that outbreaks in workplaces, long-term care homes and households could spread quickly.

You can absolutely criticize individual restrictions. Some were inconsistent, some lasted too long, and some caused real economic and social damage.

But Canada was handed a horrible situation and, compared with many countries, handled it reasonably well.

And Trudeau did not personally impose every lockdown or business restriction in the country. Most of the measures people actually lived under were provincial. In Ontario, that meant Doug Ford’s government.

Canada also ended up with high vaccination uptake and substantially lower COVID mortality than the United States.

So there is a legitimate argument to be had about whether every measure was proportionate.

But “the media scared everyone, the mortality rate was inconclusive, and Trudeau handled it horribly” is not a serious assessment of what actually happened.

But I never expect you to be serious or have material facts at your disposal. You're a "feelings" and shoots from the hip kind of right winger.
a factory can afford 5 sick days which is majority who got infected had to endure. not a few weeks of shutdown. I deal with a lot of food plants and they can't afford to shutdown operation for a few weeks in order to do the proper repairs. they would rather pay patch work that will last a few months to pass inspection for half a year. they would rather pay quarterly to do band aid repairs.
there was no COVID tearing through 100 employees...most that are at risk are elderly and those with underlying illness...those are not in work force. the shutdown of business was unnecessary...
 

MilaniCarmelo

previously Melissa Carter
Supporting Member
You make good valid points. I did hear of healthy folks getting the jab and becoming ill and worse case dying. Seems rare, not sure what percentage. But if the flu shot or Covid vaccine, etc. got me really ill I'd def never get it again and if my job made it mandatory I'd def have no choice but to quit too.
The crazy thing is that I was ordered by my work place to get 2 jabs and a booster. Problem was that months later not only did I not fully recover from the side effects but my new medical issues made it so difficult to work that I ended up having to quit my job anyway! I was devastated! 😢
 

greensquare

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Aug 23, 2026
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How sad for you. That's the risk with taking vaccines including ones for measles too. At least you acknowledge they work. Too bad you couldn't wait longer then decide if you wanted to take them or not compared to your job making it mandatory.

Glad your health is better now and you're still alive.
 

Shaquille Oatmeal

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Jun 2, 2023
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productivity also dwindled over remote work than physically in the work place....
I work in an industry in which productivity actually improved through remote working. It was a mixed bag effect depending on your industry.

Sitting at my desk working on a computer in the office is the exact same thing without the distraction of ridiculous wasteful human interactions and office drama.

Efficientcy went up.

Billables went up.

Bonuses whet up.

It was a win for some of us.

I say this working from my home office.
This. 👆
Office workers, who do their work on a computer, and usually do meetings via Teams, remote work actually improves productivity by removing distractions, commuting requirements, providing a more physically comfortable space to work etc.,
 
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Shaquille Oatmeal

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1. There was a lot of studies done showing evidence that the vaccine drastically progressed some underlying issues people had.
This is not true.
Global scientific consensus and extensive data from major health organizations confirm that COVID-19 vaccines are safe and highly effective, particularly for individuals with pre-existing or underlying health conditions.
...completely healthy individuals (some were personal trainers and military personnel) who eat clean, go to the gym and never touched a cigarette or drop of liquor in their life had either drastically deteriorated in health or DIED only a few weeks or months after getting jabbed.
They were extreme outliers.
The number of deaths was 0.04 deaths per million in Canada. That is effectively 0%.
Additionally, I don't believe there were any healthy person cohort ever defined for these deaths, given they were such outliers.
3. Doctors and other healthcare professionals across the GLOBE were fired or punished in some way for speaking out against the vaccine.
Of course, such doctors who act against the interest of public health have to be let go.
A global pandemic isn't the time to suggest "alternative treatments" based on nothing at all.
 

Ceiling Cat

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Feb 25, 2009
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In my life I have by necessity or desire to benefit from become proficient in 5 areas of expertise, none of which are in medicine. There are matters where you can use deductive reasoning to make your best choice. In matters of medicine, I will trust in the medical profession. It is not one group of medical professionals that agreed on the treatment for Covid-19, it was many groups from many countries concurred on treatment. The people that refused the vaccine made their choice not by fact but by the opinion of uninformed people.
 
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