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If sp agency is allowed in Canada , why we do not have sex spa like the one in Switzerland?

coolmanfever

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Just found out about this spa. Looks like very well known in Switzerland. Owner of spa just collect entrance fees from both working girls and clients. Whatever client paid 100 percent go directly to the girl. You get to see and talk with the girl first to get the vibe before transaction take place.

Looks like a better business model and more safe for everyone. Why we don't get such establishment in Canada?
 

Pamela Lee69

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Sounds like fun. An expert will be able to answer better than I. My 2 cents, legality and laws different here.
 
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Patron

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Agencies aren’t “allowed” in Canada in the sense that they are not legal, regulated and zoned like spas are in Switzerland.

You can buy time and companionship from an escort in Canada, and she is allowed to purchase the services provided by an agency for advertising, booking and transportation. Technically it is illegal for the customer to purchase sex from her, but that customer is of course purchasing time and companionship. It is not illegal from her perspective to choose to provide sex in return for payment. None of the Canadian incalls where commercial sex occurs are formally registered as business establishments where the sale of sex occurs, since that would be illegal.

In Germany and Switzerland, many incall places are formally registered as places where sex is sold. The downside is that they are then regulated, including licensing and regulation of the ladies.
 

onomatopoeia

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Just found out about this spa. Looks like very well known in Switzerland. Owner of spa just collect entrance fees from both working girls and clients. Whatever client paid 100 percent go directly to the girl. You get to see and talk with the girl first to get the vibe before transaction take place.

Looks like a better business model and more safe for everyone. Why we don't get such establishment in Canada?
There are establishments like this in Toronto, which work on exactly this business model. The only difference is that they're for gay men, and they're called 'bath houses'.
 

Carpa

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I was wondering because they're speaking Italian, but they're in Austria just 6 kilometres from Italy. I thought we had something like this in Markham run by Asians, I don't think non Asians get the sex part of the business.
 

Carpa

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There are establishments like this in Toronto, which work on exactly this business model. The only difference is that they're for gay men, and they're called 'bath houses'.
Its true, but I think the sex part is free as gay guys go there to get laid.
 

onomatopoeia

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Its true, but I think the sex part is free as gay guys go there to get laid.
I'm just guessing, but I would be surprised if the 'bottom' doesn't receive some sort of compensation at least some of the time, for 'damages incurred'. If might not be cash, but it might be something else of value, (a place to sleep? food? alcohol or drugs? jewelry?) There are likely more than a few hustlers playing the game that way, and others with few other skills which could be monetized.
 

silentkisser

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My understanding of the law is this: Agencies are technically illegal. While an SP would not be charged for solicitation, the john could be. Basically, you can sell it with no legal issues, but buying is illegal. However, I believe that, for the most part, police services don't really care about places like SFT or Alegra, as long as they aren't trafficking or have minors. So, it is sort of unenforced. However, technically an agency could be viewed as "receiving a material benefit from prostitution," (which used to be called living off the avails of prostitution,) is still a criminal offence. So agencies could theoretically face legal jeopardy.

Now, going down the path the legal brothels...I think most people don't want to see street walkers in their neighbourhoods. But, that wouldn't clean the streets up. And, there are many arguments against this, like it could increase demand, raises misogyny, puts more of an emphasis on the clients safety than the SP, and could be a cover for trafficking. Obviously, those on this board probably don't have a problem with making it legal...

All that being said, I'm still sort of shocked that those Asian places that have all the ladies on site and ready for inspection are still in business. That just SCREAMS to me that the police will do a raid at some point. I mean, they have foreign women doing sex work. That is nearly the definition of sex trafficking, even if they are doing it for themselves. I could see it just being investigated...

Now, as I said, I'm no expert, so take this all with a grain of salt. I know there are a few lawyers on this board, they would probably have more insight.
 

Patron

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I was wondering because they're speaking Italian, but they're in Austria just 6 kilometres from Italy. I thought we had something like this in Markham run by Asians, I don't think non Asians get the sex part of the business.
The Austrian and German lower-cost brothels and FKKs are mostly Romanian and other far Eastern-European “imports”. German, Austrian and Italian ladies work as independent escorts or with higher-end agencies. The Asians wisely don’t want to compete in areas where there are low-costs, and it is easy for governments to run Asian massage parlors off when the government licenses and regulates mega-brothels.

Want to find sex trafficking? Look for low prices with foreign ladies. You can of course argue it either way. The Asian ladies working outside of Asia and the Romanian ladies working outside of Romania make more than they would in their home countries.
 

Carpa

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The Austrian and German lower-cost brothels and FKKs are mostly Romanian and other far Eastern-European “imports”. German, Austrian and Italian ladies work as independent escorts or with higher-end agencies. The Asians wisely don’t want to compete in areas where there are low-costs, and it is easy for governments to run Asian massage parlors off when the government licenses and regulates mega-brothels.

Want to find sex trafficking? Look for low prices with foreign ladies. You can of course argue it either way. The Asian ladies working outside of Asia and the Romanian ladies working outside of Romania make more than they would in their home countries.
I heard of the Romanians working in the industry
 

Endurance2024

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In Germany and Switzerland, many incall places are formally registered as places where sex is sold. The downside is that they are then regulated, including licensing and regulation of the ladies.
Please explain the downside of regulating and licensing of the ladies and the agencies.
 

Patron

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Please explain the downside of regulating and licensing of the ladies and the agencies.
I used to see a lady (paid her of course) on a regular basis who worked in porn, worked at a BDSM club, did escorting for a few customers, and attended college. Energetic and hard-working lady. She was part of a data breach that a “religious“ group was behind. They published online the real names of several ladies along with their porn names. It is out there forever. She took it in stride, but let‘s not kid ourselves. Very few ladies in North America want their real names associated with sex work and stored in a breachable file. Many pay proper taxes, but they do vague descriptions of activities. And government registration and licensing branches don’t maintain the type of security that tax agencies do. It is a disaster waiting to happen.
 
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mandrill

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Please explain the downside of regulating and licensing of the ladies and the agencies.
Australia is the prime example. Inspectors show up and close the place down if there are what are classed as "unsafe services", like bbbj's. So certain types of service are banned and government stooges are forever dropping by and snooping and nuisancing.
 
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Endurance2024

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I used to see a lady (paid her of course) on a regular basis who worked in porn, worked at a BDSM club, did escorting for a few customers, and attended college. Energetic and hard-working lady. She was part of a data breach that a “religious“ group was behind. They published online the real names of several ladies along with their porn names. It is out there forever. She took it in stride, but let‘s not kid ourselves. Very few ladies in North America want their real names associated with sex work and stored in a breachable file. Many pay proper taxes, but they do vague descriptions of activities. And government registration and licensing branches don’t maintain the type of security that tax agencies do. It is a disaster waiting to happen.
I would argue that in this day and age we are all fucked when it comes to hacking and like you say it's inevitable. Even the CRA has had instances where names and SINs were breached.

Now for agencies what do we really know about their operations and IT security. From the SP side how do they protect the true identity of their SPs. How do those agencies that require a copy of your ID protect that information.

When hacking is reported in the media its mostly some hacker remotely breaching a firewall or an email that got opened by an employee and malware installed giving the hackers what they need.

But not many reports of insider hacking. An employee that has the intent of stealing information and selling it or exposing it based being a disgruntled employee. What ever the reason this shit does happen in regular businesses. So these agencies are no different.

Those groups religious and otherwise who find it right and making them selves feel good and doing their Gods work by shaming and exposing SWs and their clients to try and stop this trade are doing more harm than good IMO. As this trade as everyone knows has been around since the beginning of time.

And the laws in place in Canada seem to allow legitimate SW. But alot of gray areas and law enforcement can apply unclear existing laws when they see fit.

It's way to easy for a young lady to enter this trade. LL is a perfect platform for them to easily put an add up and start receiving clients or doing out calls. That's if they decide to do it themselves.

The shamers will take the position that no women would voluntarily do this work. Pimp behind her or maybe she has a drug habit that this cash work can help fuel. Shaming tactic is hurting those very women they want to save. It's not preventing those not legitimate SWs from getting into this.
Trafficking is also harder to investigate and prosecute in the current laws.

And I don't hear anything in the media about protecting young males from getting into SW. I'm sure there are stories.

I say it's time Canada take the lead in implementing legislation that really helps protect the SW.

Licensing SWs may ensure they are entering for the right reasons. Some education that could expose the boyfriend pimp and a test to pass maybe just like a driver's license. Drug screening before they start and mandatory random testing.

For agencies and SPAs and strip clubs. Clear licensing requirements and code of conduct.
Criminal background checks for staff especially bookers who are exposed to client and SP information, drivers and or security personel. Criminal background checks on the owners.
Clear guidelines for agencies to follow and especially new agencies that at the moment can just put up a website and advertise.

Some clear legislation for foreign SWs and licensing to ensure trafficking is not happening. Clear laws to not only help LE but all involved in SW.

For Indies some association they belong to which they probably already have. Can represent them but somehow including them in legislation.

Being a cash business .. and the stigma behind SW. Hard for a legitimate SW to be taken seriously at a bank for deposits and for a loan for a car or a mortgage I hear.
So things can be setup to hide the real source of income with maybe a dummy corp.
Probably some creative accounting somehow.

Regulating this biz just like the weed industry will make things safer and generate tax revenue.

What say you?
 
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Patron

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I would argue that in this day and age we are all fucked when it comes to hacking and like you say it's inevitable. Even the CRA has had instances where names and SINs were breached.

Now for agencies what do we really know about their operations and IT security. From the SP side how do they protect the true identity of their SPs. How do those agencies that require a copy of your ID protect that information.

When hacking is reported in the media its mostly some hacker remotely breaching a firewall or an email that got opened by an employee and malware installed giving the hackers what they need.

But not many reports of insider hacking. An employee that has the intent of stealing information and selling it or exposing it based being a disgruntled employee. What ever the reason this shit does happen in regular businesses. So these agencies are no different.

Those groups religious and otherwise who find it right and making them selves feel good and doing their Gods work by shaming and exposing SWs and their clients to try and stop this trade are doing more harm than good IMO. As this trade as everyone knows has been around since the beginning of time.

And the laws in place in Canada seem to allow legitimate SW. But alot of gray areas and law enforcement can apply unclear existing laws when they see fit.

It's way to easy for a young lady to enter this trade. LL is a perfect platform for them to easily put an add up and start receiving clients or doing out calls. That's if they decide to do it themselves.

The shamers will take the position that no women would voluntarily do this work. Pimp behind her or maybe she has a drug habit that this cash work can help fuel. Shaming tactic is hurting those very women they want to save. It's not preventing those not legitimate SWs from getting into this.
Trafficking is also harder to investigate and prosecute in the current laws.

And I don't hear anything in the media about protecting young males from getting into SW. I'm sure there are stories.

I say it's time Canada take the lead in implementing legislation that really helps protect the SW.

Licensing SWs may ensure they are entering for the right reasons. Some education that could expose the boyfriend pimp and a test to pass maybe just like a driver's license. Drug screening before they start and mandatory random testing.

For agencies and SPAs and strip clubs. Clear licensing requirements and code of conduct.
Criminal background checks for staff especially bookers who are exposed to client and SP information, drivers and or security personel. Criminal background checks on the owners.
Clear guidelines for agencies to follow and especially new agencies that at the moment can just put up a website and advertise.

Some clear legislation for foreign SWs and licensing to ensure trafficking is not happening. Clear laws to not only help LE but all involved in SW.

For Indies some association they belong to which they probably already have. Can represent them but somehow including them in legislation.

Being a cash business .. and the stigma behind SW. Hard for a legitimate SW to be taken seriously at a bank for deposits and for a loan for a car or a mortgage I hear.
So things can be setup to hide the real source of income with maybe a dummy corp.
Probably some creative accounting somehow.

Regulating this biz just like the weed industry will make things safer and generate tax revenue.

What say you?
I tend not to like government involvement in this industry.

When the government gets too involved, things get big, much like the incall places are in Germany, Switzerland and Austria. And I don’t think that big is good. At the top, it draws nefarious actors. Many German FKKs are run by motorcycle gangs, and the largely Romanian workforce who mostly live in buildings that are part of the property, are often dropped off and picked up by other Romanians for their two or three week stay.

I know some, certainly not all, ladies in the industry come from poverty and occasionally from bad backgrounds, but smaller group interactions with ladies actually in the business are better than a school lesson from a government-employed, college-educated sociologist who has never done sex work, in no small part because no one would pay her. It really isn’t that much different than subsidized housing. Some governments build giant complexes, i.e., they build the ghettos of tomorrow, today. The inhabitants do a hell of a lot better in small structures scattered about. They conform to the neighborhood.

Even among the non-poor, it Is true. Rich kids do better in smaller school classes than big auditorium type classes, all the way through college.

Personally, I think Portugal does it right, and Germany/Austria/Switzerland do it wrong. But people study Germany/Austria/Swiss big incall places because they are certainly easy to find and lots of people to study. The ladies in Portugal primarily work independently and share incall spaces among three to five ladies who are friends and interact with each other. The government is aggressive in shutting down anything too organized or run by non-participants in the industry.

While Portugal is inexpensive, most systems that don’t involve large, known-location, incalls are more expensive. So there are no great answers for guys who don’t have as much to spend. There was a documentary about the German system, and one guy happily said it was like Aldi’s for sex. I guess he was trying to be complimentary of Germans, but much of their system is really more like WalMart. Build it big, get economies of scale, stock it with imported labor, and get your local labor to accept lower wages, especially if your initial low prices drives out the competition.

When you listen to North American sex workers talk at hearings involving this industry, they say they don’t want government involvement or big facilities. They want to work independently, or in small groups where players such as agencies are controlled by them, not the other way around.
 

Brown Nose Bear

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When you listen to North American sex workers talk at hearings involving this industry, they say they don’t want government involvement or big facilities. They want to work independently, or in small groups where players such as agencies are controlled by them, not the other way around.
This is important. Sex workers themselves by and large are opposed to the kind of regulations that Endurance proposed. I hope some of them will chime in. It's usually johns or people outside the scene (social workers, etc.) that come up with these ideas.
 
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Endurance2024

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This is important. Sex workers themselves by and large are opposed to the kind of regulations that Endurance proposed. I hope some of them will chime in. It's usually johns or people outside the scene (social workers, etc.) that come up with these ideas.
Yeah it would be nice to hear some perspective from SPs, Agencies and maybe lawyers.

I would say the SW associations should have a big say in the legislation. Probably ownership in the agencies makes alot of sense as well.

I've read agencies have to be careful in how they operate with the unclear laws. And lawyers likely advising not on what the written law is but the likely that LE won't shut you down based on a court ruling making it harder to enforce an outdated law.

Society just has to get past the stigma I guess. It's still going to be difficult as the one side that can't accept SW as a profession will want very strict laws or still outlaw altogether and the SW professionals will want their vision.

I've heard on just this thread it driving up the cost for the John. Don't think that would be the case we might find fewer young women entering the trade but perhaps older women due to it being legal might do it who knows. There are SPs now just doing it part time and have a day job. Some for the money and some for other reasons.

One other point that has prevented new legislation is the group in society that shames the profession has so much influence. Shaming the SPs, John's, and most importantly politicians.

Again I say they think they are doing the right thing but IMHO it's not preventing trafficking or young people with drug addictions getting started.

Good legislation has to provide a path to make a clear decision to enter the profession. Making it legal within a framework that makes it safer for all.

Government still should not have any business to what happens in the bedroom between consenting adults. Just making it more clear that the adults signed up for it in the first place.
 

Patron

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Yeah it would be nice to hear some perspective from SPs, Agencies and maybe lawyers.

I would say the SW associations should have a big say in the legislation. Probably ownership in the agencies makes alot of sense as well.

I've read agencies have to be careful in how they operate with the unclear laws. And lawyers likely advising not on what the written law is but the likely that LE won't shut you down based on a court ruling making it harder to enforce an outdated law.

Society just has to get past the stigma I guess. It's still going to be difficult as the one side that can't accept SW as a profession will want very strict laws or still outlaw altogether and the SW professionals will want their vision.

I've heard on just this thread it driving up the cost for the John. Don't think that would be the case we might find fewer young women entering the trade but perhaps older women due to it being legal might do it who knows. There are SPs now just doing it part time and have a day job. Some for the money and some for other reasons.

One other point that has prevented new legislation is the group in society that shames the profession has so much influence. Shaming the SPs, John's, and most importantly politicians.

Again I say they think they are doing the right thing but IMHO it's not preventing trafficking or young people with drug addictions getting started.

Good legislation has to provide a path to make a clear decision to enter the profession. Making it legal within a framework that makes it safer for all.

Government still should not have any business to what happens in the bedroom between consenting adults. Just making it more clear that the adults signed up for it in the first place.
You sure do have a lot more confidence in the effectiveness of legislation and regulation than I do.

This industry is very self-regulating at the higher levels. Reputed agencies and independents who share resources with other independents don’t really tolerate drug abuse and pimping among their peers.

The industry is a mess at the lower levels. But if you want the government to be involved, which is dangerous, it could do more law enforcement directed at Asian massage parlors and the Wild West of Leolist. I wouldn’t want that, but it is unfair to subject properly self-regulating sex workers to registration, psychobabble instruction sessions, and drug testing just because of others.
 

fall

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This is important. Sex workers themselves by and large are opposed to the kind of regulations that Endurance proposed. I hope some of them will chime in. It's usually johns or people outside the scene (social workers, etc.) that come up with these ideas.
Because mass acceptance of the sex trade and large facilities will lead to more competition and lower income for current SPs. The same as waiters are against increasing the wage and abolishing tipping.
 
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