2 Air Canada Pilots killed at Laguardia
- Thread starter unassuming
- Start date
You right, sometimes it's easy to forget just how overworked and exhausted they really are
You’re right about the first part; my error. For some reason I thought they had reported holding short, they hadn’t.
If you look at the geometry, the trucks further back had a wide field of view, likely saw the landing traffic and stopped. The lead truck, being closer to the runway, likely would not have had as wide a field of vision. Couple that with the angle between the taxiway and the runway, (meaning that the driver would have had to turned his head more than 90 degrees to the right to see the aircraft), and you can start to see how a standard clear left, clear right might have missed the conflict.
Also, you do realize that this is the very living example of the joke about pilots: Guys who spend all their time on the ground talking about flying, and all their time flying talking about women….
Apparently the pilot saw the impending disaster as soon as they landed, took control of the plane back from the co-pilot, and, in a supreme act of self-sacrifice and professionalism, did not turn the plane at an angle to try to avoid the collision.
The reason being the fuel is in the wings, and an angled collision would have probaby caused an instant fireball that would have killed most, if not all, of the passengers.
What do you mean by "apparently"? Not being an asshole here or anything but don't believe any breathless conjecture foisted upon us by the ever BREAKING NEWS industry. NOBODY except the people who have heard the actual cockpit voice recordings and seen the analyzed Flight Recorder control inputs, velocity vectors etc has any clue whatsoever about what the pilots did or didn't do. I looked at the video Frame by Frame and did not see anything to support any control inputs.
I mean NO disrespect of the unfortunate Airmen who lost their lives. It is absolutely tragic for these young Airmen and their families. But let's not make them out to be heroic. They are not "heroes". There was no time or room to do anything to manoeuvre directionally then, or not. Just brake and realize you're fucked and are going to die. There was NO time to think things like fuel tank impact points or adjust for any anticipated trajectories.
Like when you are driving through an intersection and t-bone a car running a red that literally appeared out of nowhere.
Or some dick pulling out for a left hand turn.. right in front of you... or a deer or moose jumping onto the road 100 feet in front of you....but at 130 mph!
Airliners do not have that kind of ability to change their trajectory that speed. Rudder pedal inputs or nose wheel steering tillers have little effect other than setting up a ground loop at that velocity.
Sadly, they had zero chance to do anything at that point except brake and brace.
What I am left wondering about though is why they didn't react, or ask the Tower about the clearance issued to the fire truck? When you are flying, you always maintain a listening watch and create a virtual 3D map of the area around you, especially in the airport control zone and traffic pattern... and especially anytihing related to your runway.. I know if I hear anything that mentions my runway, my ears perk up. I can't imagine that both of them missed the Tower and Fire Truck communications. I do know that sometimes you can make a mistake when you are entering in your next frequency into standby and switch TO that frequency mistakenly.
Aside from all the other holes in the Swiss cheese, I think the Tower controller simply had a short memory lapse of clearing the Air Canada flight when he was dealing with the so-called 'Emergency' . He had just started his shift and the airspace wasn't busy at the time around the collision. And acting as Ground Control and Tower controller with that little traffic is more efficient and less work than having two controllers that then have to coordinate between themselves.
We all have momentary memory lapses. We are humans. Unfortunately, if an Air Traffic Controller has one at the wrong time, it can be fatal.
You may be right.
I think it was based on standard procedure being that the pilot usually, immediately after landing, hands over control of the plane to the co-pilot for the ground portion of the landing and the eventual taxiing to the gate.
What I read was that, a few seconds after touchdown, the pilot, having given control to the co-pilot, took control back, which was unusual, and kept the plane on a direct straight path to the crossing where the accident took place.
Maybe the pilot saw the firetruck coming toward the runway as the plane was landing, or maybe the pilot heard the frantic "stop, stop, stop" directed at the fire truck.
As of today, there was a second by second breakdown of the events as the investigators have discovered them, including the unusual handing over, and then taking back, of the plane's controls.
Of course simple braking in time to prevent the accident was impossible.
But hey, what do I know?
I think it was based on standard procedure being that the pilot usually, immediately after landing, hands over control of the plane to the co-pilot for the ground portion of the landing and the eventual taxiing to the gate.
What I read was that, a few seconds after touchdown, the pilot, having given control to the co-pilot, took control back, which was unusual, and kept the plane on a direct straight path to the crossing where the accident took place.
Maybe the pilot saw the firetruck coming toward the runway as the plane was landing, or maybe the pilot heard the frantic "stop, stop, stop" directed at the fire truck.
As of today, there was a second by second breakdown of the events as the investigators have discovered them, including the unusual handing over, and then taking back, of the plane's controls.
Of course simple braking in time to prevent the accident was impossible.
But hey, what do I know?
Whoever the PF (Pilot Flying) is during the approach is almost always the one who lands the plane does the braking and steers using the rudder pedals until the aircraft has slowed to the point at which it is able to exit the runway. At which time, if it is the First Officer in the right seat, the Captain in the left seat will take over as the "tiller" to steer the nose wheel is on the left arm rest beside the Captain. The only time a Captain will take over the controls from the FO at that critical stage of landing is in case of an emergency he feels he/she is better equipped or experienced to handle. He will say the words "MY AIRPLANE" and take hold of the controls and the FO will relinquish the controls and acknowledge by replying "YOUR AIRPLANE". Or if the FO (or Captain) feels it better than the other pilot take control, she/he will say "YOUR AIRPLANE" and the other pilot will know and is always prepared to take over the controls.
In this case, it is my guess that at that stage of the landing, a change of control from one pilot to another was unusual and likely the moment they saw the firetruck. But at the point at which the control was changed, the aircraft was doing over 150 mph and there is NO changing the trajectory with the decreasingly ineffective rudder (low airspeed) or the (relatively) tiny nose wheels. Hell, even after the plane glanced off and knocked over a 35 tonne fire truck, the jet kept kept going straight. All the pilots could do is what they were already doing, STOMPING on the toe brakes on the rudder pedals. The aircraft has very advanced anti-skid braking systems so they were doing all physics could allow to soak up all that energy. Thrust reversers were deployed earlier in the landing, BEFORE the change of controls took place so I don't think the pilots saw the fire truck until the last few seconds.
The fire truck definitely seemed to change course to the left as he entered the runways so I think he might have seen the jet, but it was too late.
This NTSB report is going to be very focused on human factors and non-standard communications phraseology and when landing and runway clearance are legally allowed to be given. I hope that the FAA and the airlines reconsider some of their obsession with "pushing tin" shortcuts and make internal changes just on the basis of the obvious failings of this accident.
Looks like she'll make a full recovery
torontosun.com
Flight attendant ejected from Air Canada plane in LaGuardia crash ‘grateful to be alive’
An Air Canada flight attendant who was ejected during a deadly crash at LaGuardia Airport in New York is speaking out. Read on.
torontosun.com
