Putin May Win in Ukraine, But the Real War Is Just Starting

nottyboi said:

What counter offer. "No we can't do that, but we'll keep talking while Ukraine prepares to attack Donbass"? lol What is the OFFER? There is no counter offer. No need to bend to Putin. Why not ask for things in return? Propose alternatives? None of that was done.

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Why do you think none of that was done?
There were formal counter offers sent.
That you want to believe it was all a fake out so that Ukraine could prepare to attack is fine.
You can believe whatever nonsense you want.
But pretending the US refused to negotiate makes you look like an idiot.
Claim it wasn't in good faith if you want - there is no way to convince you - but don't be an ignorant fool.

Do you really think having the NATO and Russia on each others borders with nukes staring at each other is a GOOD THING?

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You seem to be in favor of it, but no, I don't.

NATO and the USA broke their agreement, Ukraine was stupid enough to believe in the NATO lie. They are now getting shredded in a proxy war. Looks like Lithuania wants to be next.

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Which agreement did they break?
And again, why do you feel Putin can break agreements and it is ok?

So, since you are SO interested in diplomacy - what about the Russia security offer in December 2021 do you feel NATO should have accepted, what should they have negotiated, and why do you think no progress was made?
Because if your position is "they had to accept all of it or Russia would invade" then that's called an ultimatum, not a negotiation.

Czar said:

More frauds who try to paint republicans as pro-Putin when there are voices on the fringe right and left that could be seen as willing to support cutting off aid.

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Of course you won't remember that the last right wing POTUS was impeached for blackmailing Ukraine and refusing to send them weapons unless they made up a fake investigation into Hunter Biden.

Frankfooter said:

Of course you won't remember that the last right wing POTUS was impeached for blackmailing Ukraine and refusing to send them weapons unless they made up a fake investigation into Hunter Biden.

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Lets see. The Obama/Biden administration refused to give Ukraine ANY weapons.


Trump was the first president to do so. And now our fraud pretends that he is concerned because Trump threatened to interrupt the flow of over half a billion dollars worth of weapons he approved.

Frankfooter proves he is a fraud again.

Oh and by the way....the Biden laptop is real, not a Russian disinformation campaign as the leftie frauds said.

Come on man....your arguments are too simple-minded to ever be credible.

Valcazar said:

Why do you think none of that was done?
There were formal counter offers sent.
That you want to believe it was all a fake out so that Ukraine could prepare to attack is fine.
You can believe whatever nonsense you want.
But pretending the US refused to negotiate makes you look like an idiot.
Claim it wasn't in good faith if you want - there is no way to convince you - but don't be an ignorant fool.


You seem to be in favor of it, but no, I don't.



Which agreement did they break?
And again, why do you feel Putin can break agreements and it is ok?

So, since you are SO interested in diplomacy - what about the Russia security offer in December 2021 do you feel NATO should have accepted, what should they have negotiated, and why do you think no progress was made?
Because if your position is "they had to accept all of it or Russia would invade" then that's called an ultimatum, not a negotiation.

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You keep saying this yet you cannot name any of the key aspects of any of the counter offers. NONE. So your are just BULLSHITTING. There was NOTHING substantive that was offered NOTHING. The West did not encourage Kiev to implement Minsk accords, that is clear, even though they sponsored the agreements. It was just a deception. They also expended NATO east in violation of their agreements. Now Lithuania is breaking an agreement to allow Russian trains to pass. US broke the deal with Iran as well. They abandoned South Vietnam, they broke UN laws many times by using military power without UNSC approval. It goes on and on and on.

Czar said:

Trump was the first president to do so. And now our fraud pretends that he is concerned because Trump threatened to interrupt the flow of over half a billion dollars worth of weapons he approved.

Frankfooter proves he is a fraud again.

Oh and by the way....the Biden laptop is real, not a Russian disinformation campaign as the leftie frauds said.

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I'm amazed at how easy marks the rump supporters are.
No wonder they sent someone who claimed to be a billionaire $250 million for a pretend legal fund.

There is only so long you can carry on with sunk cost fallacy.

Frankfooter said:

I'm amazed at how easy marks the rump supporters are.
No wonder they sent someone who claimed to be a billionaire $250 million for a pretend legal fund.

Trump, who was impeached for withholding nearly $400 million in military aid from Ukraine, said 'this deadly Ukraine situation would never have happened' if he were in office

Donald Trump's first impeachment stemmed, in part, from his efforts to pressure Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden while withholding vital security aid.

news.yahoo.com

There is only so long you can carry on with sunk cost fallacy.

How Susceptible Are You to the Sunk Cost Fallacy?

Many managers are susceptible to the famous sunk cost effect, whereby they persist investing in a money-losing project even when it makes sense to invest the new money in alternative new projects. The research-based tool presented in this article enables managers to measure that susceptibility.

hbr.org

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Once again folks, the frauds pretend to be upset about Trump withholding some of the weaponry he gave to Ukraine after the frauds refused to give any weaponry to Ukraine. That is why they are frauds.

So Trump withheld $400 million that he had previously approved in order to expose the Biden corruption, while the Bidens gave Ukraine nothing except some blankets apparently. I'm sure that would have slowed the Russians down.

But if all this is fallacy Frankfooter, tell us specifically how much lethal aid Obama/Biden gave to Ukraine.

Fraud.

Czar said:

So Trump withheld $400 million that he had previously approved

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Yes, rump tried to blackmail Zelenskyy and was impeached for this crime.
While you admit you don't mind backing corruption if it gets you what you want.
But why would you back blackmailing Ukraine while at the same time claiming you want Ukraine to get more weapons?

Wouldn't that fit your own definition of 'fraud'?

Frankfooter said:

Yes, rump tried to blackmail Zelenskyy and was impeached for this crime.
While you admit you don't mind backing corruption if it gets you what you want.
But why would you back blackmailing Ukraine while at the same time claiming you want Ukraine to get more weapons?

Wouldn't that fit your own definition of 'fraud'?

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Blackmail/bribery its called - US foreign policy.

nottyboi said:

You keep saying this yet you cannot name any of the key aspects of any of the counter offers. NONE. So your are just BULLSHITTING. There was NOTHING substantive that was offered NOTHING.

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Ahh... "nothing substantive"

So this is just "if I don't get everything I want I throw a tantrum"?

I've asked you before - go through the list of the Kremlin offer.
Remember, they took the very unusual step of making their demands public.
Let's go through the list and you tell me which ones you think NATO and the US would negotiate on and which ones the Kremlin was going to soften their position on in response to those negotiations.

The West did not encourage Kiev to implement Minsk accords, that is clear, even though they sponsored the agreements.

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The Minsk agreements were brought up repeatedly, but as you know, Russia interpreted them differently and refused to engage.

It was just a deception. They also expended NATO east in violation of their agreements.

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Which agreements?

Now Lithuania is breaking an agreement to allow Russian trains to pass. US broke the deal with Iran as well. They abandoned South Vietnam, they broke UN laws many times by using military power without UNSC approval. It goes on and on and on.

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Yes, the US has often been a malign actor on the world stage.
For you, this means that Russia should be able to do whatever it wants without consequence because it is an imperial power and deserves to be able to break agreements with impunity.
I disagree.

Valcazar said:

Ahh... "nothing substantive"

So this is just "if I don't get everything I want I throw a tantrum"?

I've asked you before - go through the list of the Kremlin offer.
Remember, they took the very unusual step of making their demands public.
Let's go through the list and you tell me which ones you think NATO and the US would negotiate on and which ones the Kremlin was going to soften their position on in response to those negotiations.



The Minsk agreements were brought up repeatedly, but as you know, Russia interpreted them differently and refused to engage.



Which agreements?



Yes, the US has often been a malign actor on the world stage.
For you, this means that Russia should be able to do whatever it wants without consequence because it is an imperial power and deserves to be able to break agreements with impunity.
I disagree.

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NATO should have been willing to negotiate ALL (and I don't mean capitulate), also to remove IRBMs from central Europe. So US removed nukes from Europe as well as provides additional verification mechanisms for the ABM sites. In return Russia removes Iskander nuclear missiles from Kaliningrad and agrees to station them outside the range radius of NATO allies. Open skies gets restored. A new accord on hypersonic missiles gets discussed. Militarization of space gets discussed. End of bomber probing flights gets discussed. Positioning of heavy armored divisions on both sides gets discussed. There are countless opportunities to improve security on both sides and for all of humanity.

This is how the fr

Frankfooter said:

Yes, rump tried to blackmail Zelenskyy and was impeached for this crime.
While you admit you don't mind backing corruption if it gets you what you want.
But why would you back blackmailing Ukraine while at the same time claiming you want Ukraine to get more weapons?

Wouldn't that fit your own definition of 'fraud'?

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This is how the frauds work folks. I am pointing out that the frauds on this thread are stating that somehow, Trump and his supporters are pro-Putin. I point out how the leftie frauds were the ones that were actually pro-Putin in their policies for years by refusing to give any lethal weapons to Ukraine and that Trump actually initiiated the delivery of lethal weapons to Ukraine.

Then the frauds try to change the subject to the impeachment issue. Well, if you want to discuss that, it can be discussed. But not before I ensure that everybody reading this thread is being intentionally misled by the frauds about which leader benefits Putin the most, who then suddenly change the subject when exposed.

- Trump sent lethal weapons to Ukraine/Obama-Biden refused to send any lethal weapons to Ukraine.
- Trump put sanctions on Nordstream 2/Biden as president cancelled sanctions on Nordstream 2.
- The Trump administration saw no Ukrainian territory lost to Russia/ Obama-Biden lost Crimea while Biden-Harris are losing territory every day.
- Trump increased US oil and gas production and offered to send it to Europe(they declined)/Biden oversees declining oil/gas output which allows russia to get more oil/gas money.
- Frankfooter and the leftie frauds misled you in the past/Frankfooter and the leftie frauds mislead you in the present/Frankfooter ad the leftie frauds will mislead you in the future.

Which administration is the most beneficial to Putin. The one that falsely accuses Trump of collusion.

Frauds.

Czar said:

This is how the fr

This is how the frauds work folks. I am pointing out that the frauds on this thread are stating that somehow, Trump and his supporters are pro-Putin.

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- Trump sent lethal weapons to Ukraine/Obama-Biden refused to send any lethal weapons to Ukraine.

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Wrong. You are an easy mark for Faux/rump lies.

- Trump put sanctions on Nordstream 2/Biden as president cancelled sanctions on Nordstream 2.

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Yes, because Germany asked them to do so. Biden did shit for allies and rump just blackmailed them or demanded they build rump towers.

- The Trump administration saw no Ukrainian territory lost to Russia/ Obama-Biden lost Crimea while Biden-Harris are losing territory every day.

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Yes, because why would Putin attack when his puppet rump was in power giving him everything he wanted. See photo above.

- Trump increased US oil and gas production and offered to send it to Europe(they declined)/Biden oversees declining oil/gas output which allows russia to get more oil/gas money.

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You're blaming Biden for the slowdown in oil usage from the covid shutdowns while not admitting that means rump oversaw the largest job loss since the depression.

fraud

nottyboi said:

NATO should have been willing to negotiate ALL (and I don't mean capitulate),

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Are you sure you don't mean to capitulate?

Are you going to actually put any of the specific demands up or just say "You have to negotiate all of them"?
Are you actually saying that if NATO says "you asked for 10 things, we are putting 2 off the table" you think Russia should then invade Ukraine?

also to remove IRBMs from central Europe.

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Was that something Russia asked for?

So US removed nukes from Europe as well as provides additional verification mechanisms for the ABM sites.

Click to expand...

Was that something Russia asked for?

In return Russia removes Iskander nuclear missiles from Kaliningrad and agrees to station them outside the range radius of NATO allies.

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Was that something Russia offered?

Open skies gets restored.

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Was that something Russia asked for?

A new accord on hypersonic missiles gets discussed. Militarization of space gets discussed. End of bomber probing flights gets discussed. Positioning of heavy armored divisions on both sides gets discussed.

Click to expand...

You think NATO said "no, we will never discuss these things"?

There are countless opportunities to improve security on both sides and for all of humanity.

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There are.
Did Putin ask for any of those things or is this a list of things you want NATO and Russia to discuss and are willing to support Russia's invasion of Ukraine to achieve?

"We will have talks on hypersonic, militarization of space, bomber flights, and positioning of heavy armored decisions" was all that was needed?
Just say that talks will happen and Putin will leave Ukraine?

Title translation:


Putin May Win in Ukraine, But the Real War Is Just Starting

=

We were wrong;
but we’ll be right this time.