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NATO's Defense Dilemma: Rising Costs, Reluctant Nations

danmand

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Panama is not a NATO member , Greenland ? Not really. There won be a fight
Greenland is part of NATO, and an important part of NATO.

Pituffik Space Base formerly and perhaps better known as Thule Air Base, is a United States Space Force base located on the northwest coast of Greenland. In addition Radar stations of the QEW are there.
 
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Knuckle Ball

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All members must pay their "fair share"
And here "fair share" is well defined 2%.
as opposed to the loonie left taxation " fair share" which you clowns never have the balls to numerically define as it really means tax the rich until they are rich no more

A functioning alliance should not require one members to chase the others to pay
according to Trump Germany, England, and France were not paying 2% until he rattled them during his first term

Poland is paying 5% as they know the horrors of being under the Russian / Commie boot.

NATO’s two percent spending target - where it came from, what it means
Once, the two percent target had no real political significance - but times have changed
Posted: April 21, 2023 4:00 AM EDT
Last Updated: April 21, 2023
Murray Brewster, CBC News


There was a time when NATO wasn't preoccupied with percentages.

In fact, for almost the first quarter century of its existence, the western alliance's annual publication of defence expenditures amounted to a one-page spreadsheet which listed, without comment or qualifications, the defence budgets of its handful of members. (Today it is a multi-page, multi-metric, multi-chart extravaganza.)

These days, those figures have political consequences. Witness the blast that followed this week's Washington Post story reporting that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau told NATO allies that Canada will not meet the alliance's benchmark of spending two per cent of its gross domestic product on defence.

But where did that benchmark come from? How meaningful is it? And what would it cost Canada to meet it?

The last question is somewhat easy to answer.

The Parliamentary Budget Office took a stab at it in a June 2022 report. The PBO said that under the current plan, Canada's military expenditures are set to rise to $51 billion by 2026-27. To achieve the NATO two per cent target, the PBO said, "the Government of Canada would need to spend an additional $18.2 billion."

That would mean an annual defence budget of almost $70 billion. (Whether the Department of National Defence has the capacity to spend that amount of money is another, separate question.)

According to the NATO archive, it was 1974 when the alliance began tracking member nations' defence spending as a percentage of their economies.

The chart for that year looks back at the four years previous to 1970, when Canada's military spending compared to its economic output was at its zenith — 2.7 per cent of GDP.


Better than Luxembourg
NATO went back and refined the estimates in later years. But for Canada's defence budget as a percentage of GDP, it was all downhill after 1970.

The mid-to-late 1970s was the era of detente, a hopeful time that came to a crashing end with the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, which ushered in some of the coldest moments of the late Cold War era. (Canada's contribution ticked upwards from 1.8 per cent of GDP in 1979 to 2.3 per cent in 1986).

But during those years, nobody at NATO was talking about a defined spending target — a floor, a ceiling or anything else.

Still, Canada was lagging behind its allies in defence spending almost a half a century ago. In 1974, Canada spent an estimated 2.4 percent of its GDP on the military. That placed it second from the bottom among 14 NATO members, ahead of Luxembourg and just behind the Netherlands.

The 1990s and the dissolution of the Soviet Union saw those numbers fall off a cliff. Defence budgets were gutted and Canada was spending about 1.2 per cent of GDP on defence — which is where roughly where the defence budget stands today.

The events of 9/11 and the Afghan war ushered in a new era of American impatience with Canada's military spending. The sense in Washington was that allies were reaping the rewards of the so-called "peace dividend" while the United States continued to shoulder the lion's share of defence spending for the western world.

In 1999, NATO launched the Defense Capabilities Initiative, which — as the U.S. Congressional Research Service noted in a 2007 report — was meant "to prepare the alliance to meet emerging security challenges that may require a variety of types of missions, both within and beyond NATO territory."

The thinking, according to the initiative, was that NATO "must ensure that its troops have the appropriate equipment, supplies, transport, communications, and training."

That gave birth in November 2002 to the Prague Capabilities Commitment (PCC), so named for the city where NATO leaders agreed to (you guessed it) set down a budget benchmark for member states.


The 'peace dividend' gets overdrawn
The "PCC is drafted to extract specific, quantifiable commitments from member states," a U.S. analysis said.

But an attempt by the administration of then-U.S. president George W. Bush to make the target mandatory failed, according to a research paper written for Germany's federal security academy in 2019.

Consequently, the two per cent target has been, throughout most of its existence, more of a suggestion than an actual target. Many countries, Canada included, largely ignore it.

It was 2006 before the precise pledge figure was first mentioned in a NATO document (at the Ministerial Guidance of the Defence Planning Committee).

"Although the target is not mentioned in the summit declaration of the 2006 NATO summit in Riga, the heads of state and government made an oral pledge even then," researcher Karl-Heniz Kamp wrote in a German academy policy paper entitled Myths Surrounding the Two Per Cent Debate: On NATO defence spending.

All that changed in 2014 with Russia's invasion of Crimea. At the NATO summit in Wales in 2014, the alliance communique said that NATO members whose contribution was below two per cent "must move towards it" over the next decade — by next year, in other words. At the time, Canada was spending only 0.9 percent of its GDP on defence.

The less-than-precise compromise language of the communique was a sign of how furious the closed-door debate among NATO members was at the time, and how many NATO members — including Canada — lacked a plan to meet the target.

The pressure only increased when Donald Trump was elected U.S. president. He famously quipped (threatened) to not defend countries that didn't meet the two per cent target.

Even though it is not binding and there are no penalties, Kamp argued that the benchmark has taken on a life of its own.

"NATO has agreed on this criterion, which has over the years turned the two per cent into a political number, repeatedly confirmed by all allies," Kamp wrote. "Hence, the two per cent target has developed a politically binding effect, even if it cannot be legally enforced.

"To reject it today as unsuitable almost inevitably results in criticism, especially after it has been reaffirmed so many times."

There are those, however, who argue that the target is a flawed, false metric. They point to how the economies of many NATO member states went into the tank during the pandemic — artificially inflating the impact of defence spending.

"Tying spending measures to GDP comes with enormous downside risk," said an October 2020 report by the Atlantic Council, a Washington-based think tank.

"This fact was borne out pre-pandemic by Greece, whose ability to surpass the two per cent threshold — in 2019, Greece spent 2.28 percent of its GDP on defence — was tied to its absence of economic growth and its high spending in areas like personnel."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/nato-military-spending-canada-trudeau-1.6817309




There is a whole history to this idea of spending 2% of GDP. At this point, Trump is just using it as a fig leaf for leaving NATO and aligning the US with like-minded authoritarian regimes.
 

danmand

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NATO’s two percent spending target - where it came from, what it means
Once, the two percent target had no real political significance - but times have changed
Posted: April 21, 2023 4:00 AM EDT
Last Updated: April 21, 2023
Murray Brewster, CBC News


There was a time when NATO wasn't preoccupied with percentages.

In fact, for almost the first quarter century of its existence, the western alliance's annual publication of defence expenditures amounted to a one-page spreadsheet which listed, without comment or qualifications, the defence budgets of its handful of members. (Today it is a multi-page, multi-metric, multi-chart extravaganza.)

These days, those figures have political consequences. Witness the blast that followed this week's Washington Post story reporting that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau told NATO allies that Canada will not meet the alliance's benchmark of spending two per cent of its gross domestic product on defence.

But where did that benchmark come from? How meaningful is it? And what would it cost Canada to meet it?

The last question is somewhat easy to answer.

The Parliamentary Budget Office took a stab at it in a June 2022 report. The PBO said that under the current plan, Canada's military expenditures are set to rise to $51 billion by 2026-27. To achieve the NATO two per cent target, the PBO said, "the Government of Canada would need to spend an additional $18.2 billion."

That would mean an annual defence budget of almost $70 billion. (Whether the Department of National Defence has the capacity to spend that amount of money is another, separate question.)

According to the NATO archive, it was 1974 when the alliance began tracking member nations' defence spending as a percentage of their economies.

The chart for that year looks back at the four years previous to 1970, when Canada's military spending compared to its economic output was at its zenith — 2.7 per cent of GDP.


Better than Luxembourg
NATO went back and refined the estimates in later years. But for Canada's defence budget as a percentage of GDP, it was all downhill after 1970.

The mid-to-late 1970s was the era of detente, a hopeful time that came to a crashing end with the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, which ushered in some of the coldest moments of the late Cold War era. (Canada's contribution ticked upwards from 1.8 per cent of GDP in 1979 to 2.3 per cent in 1986).

But during those years, nobody at NATO was talking about a defined spending target — a floor, a ceiling or anything else.

Still, Canada was lagging behind its allies in defence spending almost a half a century ago. In 1974, Canada spent an estimated 2.4 percent of its GDP on the military. That placed it second from the bottom among 14 NATO members, ahead of Luxembourg and just behind the Netherlands.

The 1990s and the dissolution of the Soviet Union saw those numbers fall off a cliff. Defence budgets were gutted and Canada was spending about 1.2 per cent of GDP on defence — which is where roughly where the defence budget stands today.

The events of 9/11 and the Afghan war ushered in a new era of American impatience with Canada's military spending. The sense in Washington was that allies were reaping the rewards of the so-called "peace dividend" while the United States continued to shoulder the lion's share of defence spending for the western world.

In 1999, NATO launched the Defense Capabilities Initiative, which — as the U.S. Congressional Research Service noted in a 2007 report — was meant "to prepare the alliance to meet emerging security challenges that may require a variety of types of missions, both within and beyond NATO territory."

The thinking, according to the initiative, was that NATO "must ensure that its troops have the appropriate equipment, supplies, transport, communications, and training."

That gave birth in November 2002 to the Prague Capabilities Commitment (PCC), so named for the city where NATO leaders agreed to (you guessed it) set down a budget benchmark for member states.


The 'peace dividend' gets overdrawn
The "PCC is drafted to extract specific, quantifiable commitments from member states," a U.S. analysis said.

But an attempt by the administration of then-U.S. president George W. Bush to make the target mandatory failed, according to a research paper written for Germany's federal security academy in 2019.

Consequently, the two per cent target has been, throughout most of its existence, more of a suggestion than an actual target. Many countries, Canada included, largely ignore it.

It was 2006 before the precise pledge figure was first mentioned in a NATO document (at the Ministerial Guidance of the Defence Planning Committee).

"Although the target is not mentioned in the summit declaration of the 2006 NATO summit in Riga, the heads of state and government made an oral pledge even then," researcher Karl-Heniz Kamp wrote in a German academy policy paper entitled Myths Surrounding the Two Per Cent Debate: On NATO defence spending.

All that changed in 2014 with Russia's invasion of Crimea. At the NATO summit in Wales in 2014, the alliance communique said that NATO members whose contribution was below two per cent "must move towards it" over the next decade — by next year, in other words. At the time, Canada was spending only 0.9 percent of its GDP on defence.

The less-than-precise compromise language of the communique was a sign of how furious the closed-door debate among NATO members was at the time, and how many NATO members — including Canada — lacked a plan to meet the target.

The pressure only increased when Donald Trump was elected U.S. president. He famously quipped (threatened) to not defend countries that didn't meet the two per cent target.

Even though it is not binding and there are no penalties, Kamp argued that the benchmark has taken on a life of its own.

"NATO has agreed on this criterion, which has over the years turned the two per cent into a political number, repeatedly confirmed by all allies," Kamp wrote. "Hence, the two per cent target has developed a politically binding effect, even if it cannot be legally enforced.

"To reject it today as unsuitable almost inevitably results in criticism, especially after it has been reaffirmed so many times."

There are those, however, who argue that the target is a flawed, false metric. They point to how the economies of many NATO member states went into the tank during the pandemic — artificially inflating the impact of defence spending.

"Tying spending measures to GDP comes with enormous downside risk," said an October 2020 report by the Atlantic Council, a Washington-based think tank.

"This fact was borne out pre-pandemic by Greece, whose ability to surpass the two per cent threshold — in 2019, Greece spent 2.28 percent of its GDP on defence — was tied to its absence of economic growth and its high spending in areas like personnel."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/nato-military-spending-canada-trudeau-1.6817309




There is a whole history to this idea of spending 2% of GDP. At this point, Trump is just using it as a fig leaf for leaving NATO and aligning the US with like-minded authoritarian regimes.
Don't worry about the 2% or 5% buy American goal. NATO may not survive in it's current form, if member states attack each other.
 
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Knuckle Ball

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WTF ?
The commitment was 2% and it was not met. That is the issue
From the article I posted above:
Out of the 31 Nato members, 23 are expected to meet Nato's guideline of spending 2% of their gross domestic product (GDP) on defence.

no I do not agree with you
Okay…so why do you think Trump is escalating his demand to 5%?

No NATO makes sense as long as there is Authoritarian rule in Russia and commies
The president of the United States IS an authoritarian ruler who continually aligns himself with Putin and other autocrats.

Also…there is no communist threat to the US or Europe in the world we live in today. Neither Russia nor China are communist countries anymore; they are just authoritarians like Trump.


OH boy, the loonie left word salad of rage
Are the words difficult for you to understand? Do you need more pictures?

Trump was democratically elected , the US electorate rejected the socialist alternative choice
Obviously you are having a difficult time dealing that.
I would have preferred he had not run, however I did not get to vote and I accept the result of their election
Yes…the American people elected a fascist. It was not a mistake. It was not a misunderstanding. Trump literally channeled Hitler throughout his campaign and the American people endorsed him. The sooner we all accept this the better.



the real long term threat to Canada is from within , the loonie left.
That’s what Hitler used to say about the Jews and Socialists.


I shudder to think what influence your extreme views have had on your students.
WTF is wrong with you? You realize attempting to out others‘ occupation or other personal info is a violation of your membership terms on the site, right?
POST REPORTED
 
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Knuckle Ball

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Yet you are the guy who is totally against progressive taxation and people paying their 'fair share' of taxes.
The only argument for upping NATO funding is now to protect the world from trump. He is now the biggest threat.
It is only a matter of time before Trump starts sending arms to Russia to support Putin in “de-nazifying“ Ukraine.
 
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Knuckle Ball

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Greenland is part of NATO, and an important part of NATO.

Pituffik Space Base formerly and perhaps better known as Thule Air Base, is a United States Space Force base located on the northwest coast of Greenland. In addition Radar stations of the QEW are there.
Exactly. The US have been given free access to Greenland to pursue any military endeavour they wish by virtue of being part of NATO. The only reason for Trump to acquire Greenland is to make the map of the US look bigger.
 
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nottyboi

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All members must pay their "fair share"
And here "fair share" is well defined 2%.
as opposed to the loonie left taxation " fair share" which you clowns never have the balls to numerically define as it really means tax the rich until they are rich no more

A functioning alliance should not require one members to chase the others to pay
according to Trump Germany, England, and France were not paying 2% until he rattled them during his first term

Poland is paying 5% as they know the horrors of being under the Russian / Commie boot.

Russians rescued the Poles from the Nazis. Trump wants 5% as the US economy needs a boost.
 

JohnLarue

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Greenland is part of NATO, and an important part of NATO.

Pituffik Space Base formerly and perhaps better known as Thule Air Base, is a United States Space Force base located on the northwest coast of Greenland. In addition Radar stations of the QEW are there.
Diego Garcia is exclusively a military installation located on a small host country atoll in the Chagos Archipelago.
That does not make the Chagos part of NATO
 

JohnLarue

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NATO’s two percent spending target - where it came from, what it means
Once, the two percent target had no real political significance - but times have changed
Yeah once there was no question of member nations commitment to NATO
And that commitment keep Stalin from invading all of Europe

Complacency has set in knowing the US had everyone back




There is a whole history to this idea of spending 2% of GDP. At this point, Trump is just using it as a fig leaf for leaving NATO and aligning the US with like-minded authoritarian regimes.
Freedoms and capitalism sounds good to me
like-minded authoritarian regimes ? Wrong he is not aligned with Trudeau, Russia or China at all.

Trumps term is limited to 4 years and his successor can be voted out , unlike Russia and Chinese authoritarians , who get the job for like
And then there is the waking disaster Trudeau who just will not go away despite resigning and will haunt us for decades to come

you are pretty slow on the uptake
And what pray tell has Klaus Swabb / WEF been up to jt ? installing useful idiots like Trudeau as their puppets to push their agenda


You get pretty emotional and upset when leverage is applied to you don't you ?
 
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JohnLarue

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Exactly. The US have been given free access to Greenland to pursue any military endeavour they wish by virtue of being part of NATO. The only reason for Trump to acquire Greenland is to make the map of the US look bigger.
oh he loves to feed his ego,
However right or wrong, there will be strategic reasons for wanting to acquire Greenland
Either location, Rare Earth metals or something else.
The US military has been there so decades so they had a look around

He is quite determined to acquire the world's second largest ice cube, so quite a bit more involved than your child like explanation
 
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Valcazar

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The threat to Europe and Canada is coming from USA these days.
If Trump wants all NATO countries to spend 5% of their GDP on defense, that means he wants to massively increase the US military budget as well.
All while openly talking about expanding territory.

There are many NATO countries that are likely to increase spending in response to concerns about the USA and its trajectory.
 
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WyattEarp

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I think it's ironic that many of the more socialist NATO countries in Europe are not "paying their fair share".
There's a reason Poland and the Baltic countries step up to the plate.
 

richaceg

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If you're a liberal this is how you will see it.
Trump literally helping Putin by putting pressure on NATO allies. They're logic is the US should spend Trillions of $$$ to become world police.
 

WyattEarp

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oh he loves to feed his ego,
However right or wrong, there will be strategic reasons for wanting to acquire Greenland
Either location, Rare Earth metals or something else.
The US military has been there so decades so they had a look around

He is quite determined to acquire the world's second largest ice cube, so quite a bit more involved than your child like explanation
I don't know what the "ultimate" end game is for Trump.

I think there are some very basic objectives that are clear. He's telling the world they aren't going to play with China and a lesser extent Russia. The United States basically defends your territory and protects global shipping with oil imports critical for some.

It's quite bold in relation to the previous eighty years of post-World War 2 alliances that basically had the U.S. guaranteeing all this and global trade. However, this now makes a lot sense if your mind can divorce yourself from opposing Trump on every matter.

Am I the only one who remembers when Merkel was playing footsie with Putin all for some natural gas?
 
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WyattEarp

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World's most affluent nations are being driven by an imaginary
existential threat into spending beyond their means to ensure
their survival. And that existential threat is posed by whom they
perceive to be a backward shithole country sustained by a third
world economy.

Nothing to worry for us Canadians after we get rid of Trudeau
and go along with Trump in putting an end to military support of
NATO-Europe though I do think for good measure Europe would
remain sheltered in the U.S. nuclear umbrella. The U.S. military
industrial complexes are going to rake in big bucks for years to
come from selling F-35 jets and other toys to Europe to stave off
imaginary future invasion from Putin. Happy days are ahead for us
in North America.
Keep your eye on the ball. In this case, the ball (threat) is China.
 

WyattEarp

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If you're a liberal this is how you will see it.
Trump literally helping Putin by putting pressure on NATO allies. They're logic is the US should spend Trillions of $$$ to become world police.
North America currently doesn't need oil. Western Europe, Japan and others depend on global trade and shipping. Thus, the U.S. Navy protects the free flow of goods across the major shipping lanes.

China is also a beneficiary of this global system. However, they are making a major push into EVs not just for cleaner air and industrial dominance. It also reduces their dependency on Mideast oil.
 

WyattEarp

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Russians rescued the Poles from the Nazis.
Apparently, you don't know history and you don't know any Poles.

This statement is so ridiculous that the Mod should suspend you for insulting everyone's intelligence.



Per Wikipedia and everyone who has any common sense:
"The uprising was timed to coincide with the retreat of the German forces from Poland ahead of the Soviet advance.[16] While approaching the eastern suburbs of the city, the Red Army halted combat operations, enabling the Germans to regroup and defeat the Polish resistance and to destroy the city in retaliation. The Uprising was fought for 63 days with little outside support. It was the single largest military effort taken by any European resistance movement during World War II.[17] The defeat of the uprising and suppression of the Home Army enabled the pro-Soviet Polish administration, instead of the Polish government-in-exile based in London, to take control of Poland afterwards. Poland would remain as part of the Soviet-aligned Eastern Bloc throughout the Cold War until 1989."
 

Valcazar

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I don't know what the "ultimate" end game is for Trump.

I think there are some very basic objectives that are clear. He's telling the world they aren't going to play with China and a lesser extent Russia. The United States basically defends your territory and protects global shipping with oil imports critical for some.

It's quite bold in relation to the previous eighty years of post-World War 2 alliances that basically had the U.S. guaranteeing all this and global trade. However, this now makes a lot sense if your mind can divorce yourself from opposing Trump on every matter.
Can you say more?
Because the way you have phrased this sounds like the two conditions are the same, but that clearly isn't what you mean.

How is "The United States basically defends your territory and protects global shipping with oil imports critical for some." different from " the previous eighty years of post-World War 2 alliances that basically had the U.S. guaranteeing all this and global trade." ?
 

WyattEarp

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As the article I posted above explains, the 3 largest economies in NATO (Germany, England, and France) are all above the 2% threshold…as is Poland which is up around 5%.
I think especially as it relates to Germany there is some question regarding government accounting. Social programs that have a military label on them to inflate military spending.

Seriously, would anyone trust government accounting?
 
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WyattEarp

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Can you say more?
Because the way you have phrased this sounds like the two conditions are the same, but that clearly isn't what you mean.

How is "The United States basically defends your territory and protects global shipping with oil imports critical for some." different from " the previous eighty years of post-World War 2 alliances that basically had the U.S. guaranteeing all this and global trade." ?
It means that much of the world benefited from U.S. protection of territory and shipping pretty much unconditionally for eighty years. Now there will be conditions including honoring NATO commitments.

I don't think the focus on NATO commitments is a major concern about Russia per se. It's really a not so subtle shift by the U.S. towards the Asia Pacific region. We also forget NATO efforts in the Balkans prior to now assisting the Ukraine. If the Soviet Union wasn't in the process of disintegrating, Russia would have certainly had Serbia's back.

You have to take my entire post into context.
 
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