Pickering Angels

Iran still enriching to 60%

basketcase

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Isn't it common place in the west to conflate Islam and authoritarianism?
So you assumed I was racist because I stated Iran was authoritarian, just like I call China and Russia authoiritarian.



I think you could use some reading yourself instead of pushing standard Israeli propaganda.
It's sad that your sense of history is based on snippets.

Try reading Rashid Khalidi or his uncle, both well regarded Palestinian historians (who were wealthy and just moved to their homes in Beirut and Riyad). But include those uncomfortable facts that for most Palestinians, their leaving was a choice. It seems like you are immune to anything but propaganda but the reason they fled was fear that was promoted by Palestinian leadership and Jewish sources. The only ethnic cleansing was people in villages that were directly involved in attacks on Jews.

Do you not see how stupid it is to call it ethnic cleansing when 1/4 of the Arab population was welcomed with full citizenship, just as was promised in their independence announcement.

It is also quite hypocritical of you to acknowledge Jews being expelled from their homelands, but not acknowledge Palestinians being expelled from their homes within Israel.
Holy imaginary complaint. Go back and read what I posted. I used the exact same language to describe the Palestinian refugees and the Jewish refugees. Seems you have an agenda here.



Yes so the majority of Jews in Israel are immigrants from other nations.
From the guy who just criticized the concept of nations.

Most of those million Jews were Ottoman citizens, just like every other Ottoman citizen. When the Ottoman empire collapsed, minority ethnic states were created. We can also discuss how many Palestinians migrated to the Palestine Mandate after the idea of Zionism was created. Numerous prominent Palestinians are descended from families that came from what is now Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Saudi Arabia (especially after the Hashemites lost Mecca to Saud). Are you going to argue that Arabs from those places are really native to Palestine but Jews from those places weren't?

And more importantly, the Arab Jews were refugees, not immigrants. And the reason they were refugees is because some Arab leaders pushed domestic Jew hatred as a political move over Israel.



What a racist nasty thing to say. So according to you, it is perfectly reasonable for immigrants from other countries to just move into a piece of land, and then expel natives from their homes so that the immigrants can make a land for themselves that is majority THEIR culture and religion, replacing the existing people there?
Ah, the racism again when you don't like reality. The UN Convention on refugees says host countries give refugees the opportunity to assimilate. The Arab League states instead established camps to hold Palestinian refugees without providing any status. That lack of status has been passed on to generations of children born in those countries. Lebanon still has laws on the books denying basic services to the descendants of Palestinian refugees.

What would you say if Canada changed its laws so that refugees and their children were refused health care, education, or any status and instead left them at the mercy of UN charity?


Agreed with that definition. And that is precisely what the CIA, JSOC, Mossad, Sayaret Matkal and numerous other western military organizations do,...[/quote]

Maybe it's the western press but I don't see many cases where those groups target purely civilian targets the way that Iranian backed terror groups do. Sounds just like the excuses you're making for Iran having nukes.
 

Frankfooter

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Bullshit. You're still pretending that Iran isn't doing anything wrong and still claiming that Israel is stopping the agreement. The ONLY reason why the deal wasn't signed was Iran refused because of UN investigations of undeclared sites.
Trump pulled out of the JCPOA at Netanyahu's request.
The only people who don't want it renewed are Israelis.

Iran says they are ready.
"The Iranian side confirms its readiness both to promptly conclude negotiations on the JCPOA and continue cooperation with the IAEA Secretariat on relevant subjects. There are no unsolvable problems here and, in my opinion, no impasse is in sight," he concluded.
 
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Frankfooter

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They weren't. Even Palestinian historians state clearly that the vast majority of Palestinians fled long before and Israeli forces appeared.
They were forced out.
Are you pretending there was no Plan Dalet?

Its not worth debating history with you.
Its more important to figure a way forward.
But all you can offer is more war, more settler colonialism and more apartheid.
 
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krealtarron

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So you assumed I was racist because I stated Iran was authoritarian, just like I call China and Russia authoiritarian.
You assumed I was anti-semitic, or at the very least insinuated it.


It's sad that your sense of history is based on snippets.

Try reading Rashid Khalidi or his uncle, both well regarded Palestinian historians (who were wealthy and just moved to their homes in Beirut and Riyad). But include those uncomfortable facts that for most Palestinians, their leaving was a choice. It seems like you are immune to anything but propaganda but the reason they fled was fear that was promoted by Palestinian leadership and Jewish sources. The only ethnic cleansing was people in villages that were directly involved in attacks on Jews.

Do you not see how stupid it is to call it ethnic cleansing when 1/4 of the Arab population was welcomed with full citizenship, just as was promised in their independence announcement.

Holy imaginary complaint. Go back and read what I posted. I used the exact same language to describe the Palestinian refugees and the Jewish refugees. Seems you have an agenda here.
It is sad your sense of history is solely based on talking points and propaganda from Israel, which I have heard a 1000 times over. This is exactly the kind of biased, one-sided history my former racist Israeli friend (who didn't even consider Arabs to be human), used to tell me.

You entire line of argument is to assume moral superiority and then engage in ad hominem attacks, followed by an Israeli propaganda dump. There are many Israeli historians who themselves write about the ethnic cleansing of Palestine as being a Zionist objective.

Do you not see how stupid it is for you to claim that there was no ethnic cleansing, when only 1/4 of the Arabs were welcomed, but the rest are being denied the right of return? Do you not see how stupid it is for you to claim that ethnic cleansing could not have happened, when Israel even today, doesn't recognize inter religious marriage of its own citizens in order to artificially preserve its "jewishness"? Do you not see how stupid it is for you to claim that ethnic cleansing could not have happened, when Israel even today illegally evicts Palestinians from their homes to build its Jewish settlements?

From the guy who just criticized the concept of nations.

Most of those million Jews were Ottoman citizens, just like every other Ottoman citizen. When the Ottoman empire collapsed, minority ethnic states were created. We can also discuss how many Palestinians migrated to the Palestine Mandate after the idea of Zionism was created. Numerous prominent Palestinians are descended from families that came from what is now Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Saudi Arabia (especially after the Hashemites lost Mecca to Saud). Are you going to argue that Arabs from those places are really native to Palestine but Jews from those places weren't?

And more importantly, the Arab Jews were refugees, not immigrants. And the reason they were refugees is because some Arab leaders pushed domestic Jew hatred as a political move over Israel.
When did I criticize the concept of nations? What are you on about?

The majority of the 700,000 jews in1948 in present day Israel were of Eastern European origin, not from the Ottoman Empire. Nice attempt at some convoluted revisionism. The fact is that Palestinians were native to the land at the time. Jews, were immigrants. End of story.

Ah, the racism again when you don't like reality. The UN Convention on refugees says host countries give refugees the opportunity to assimilate. The Arab League states instead established camps to hold Palestinian refugees without providing any status. That lack of status has been passed on to generations of children born in those countries. Lebanon still has laws on the books denying basic services to the descendants of Palestinian refugees.
This is the most irrational and tone deaf argument yet.

So native Palestinians are ignored and the majority of the land is given, without their consent to Eastern European immigrant Jews. Who then proceed to use war as a pretext to expel Palestinians and ethnically cleanse the region. And your "reasonable expectation" is that they just be accepted into another Arab nation and that they be allowed to assimilate there?

What should have happened is for Jews and Arabs to have formed a democratic SECULAR country, with full rights for everyone. Which would have made Jews the MINORITY (rightfully so).

Do you think Zionist ideology would have allowed for that? Everyone knows the answer to that question - and that is precisely why it is racist to argue, that Palestinians should have just picked up and moved to another country. Do you even understand the magnitude of the task to move to another country even through legal immigration systems, let alone as refugees?

What an insane argument.

Maybe it's the western press but I don't see many cases where those groups target purely civilian targets the way that Iranian backed terror groups do. Sounds just like the excuses you're making for Iran having nukes.
Really? Maybe you selectively pay attention to only things you want to read. Read about how many civilians are killed by NATO/US in the name of "collateral damage". A fancy term doesn't change what it actually means - terrorism.
 
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basketcase

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You assumed I was anti-semitic, or at the very least insinuated it.
Yes, based on the double statndard of your posts. I later admitting your views might simply be based on an extreme lack of information.

You pretended my criticisim of Iran was over religion, denied you said it, and now admit you called me racist. Nice.

You might have heard the things I mention 1000 times because that's what happened. Do you think Rashid Khalidi is an Israeli propagandist? I'd suggest that all of your criticism of well documented history is simply because the reality interferes with your one sided narrative.



Do you not see how stupid it is for you to claim that there was no ethnic cleansing, when only 1/4 of the Arabs were welcomed,
Yes, because words have meanings. Actual historians including Palestinian ones document the reality, every Palestinian that chose to stay got citizenship. The ones that fled weren't allowed back in and a small number (2% according to Walid Khalidi) were actually forced out because their villages were actively involved in attacks on neighbouring Jews.

And I see that you've completely run away from the fact that a million Jews were chased out of their Arab homelands simply because Arab leadership wanted to push hatred against other Jews.


The majority of the 700,000 jews in1948 in present day Israel were of Eastern European origin, not from the Ottoman Empire.
And were quickly followed by 800,000 of the million Jews chased out of their homelands due to Arab anti-semitism, completely undermining your bullshit claims about Israeli Jews being European invaders when half of them are indigenous to the same areas of the Ottoman empire as many Palestinians.

And another inconvenient fact for you is according to Ottoman census, Jews were the largest ethnic group in Jerusalem BEFORE the first Zionist conference in Europe.



You also seem to be pushing some warped ideas about minorities and immigration. The first violence of the modern conflict was Arab leaders inciting violence against indigenous Jews because they didn't like the idea that other Jews were legally immigrating to land that they legally purchased. I know that comparing things to Canada upsets your views but in Canada, people who incite violence against immigrants are considered bigots.


And what's so tone deaf about the UN Convention on Refugees? Canada accepts over 100,000 refugees a year, giving them full access to services and full opportunity to gain resident status or citizenship. Why is it wrong in your mind to condemn Arab countries for keeping generations locked up without rights, dependent on UN charity for even basic services? The comparison falls apart a bit because Canada was not one of the countries that declared war to cause all of the refugees and didn't chase huge amounts of people the country due to racism.


What should have happened is for Jews and Arabs to have formed a democratic SECULAR country
What should have happened? You think the Western led UN should have forced Palestinians into something against their will? Sorry but that's dumb, especially with you claiming that it was all Palestinian land invaded by European Jews. Even if it would have been nice according to our Canadian values, the UN solved international conflicts at that time be separating the fighting ethnicities. As people can't go back, the only issue is how to move forward.



p.s. Collateral damage is something allowed under international law. Attacks directly targeting civilians isn't. Is that so hard to understand?
 

basketcase

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Frankfooter

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basketcase

Well-known member
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Ah, you're still claiming that reporting Israeli news is an antisemitic trope.
Nice.
...
You're still pretending the deal doesn't exist because of your Israel conspiracy theories and not because Iran refused to re-sign. trump did what Trump wanted because he thought it would be good for his reputation, not because some Jews made him.

 

basketcase

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My posted histories show no such thing.
...
So the quotes you previously posted from Khalidi?
But sure, post an op/ed from aljazeera as if it is truth.

A million Jews being ethnically cleansed from their Arab homes because of open anti-semitism at the same time doesn't seem to bother you.
 

Frankfooter

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You're still pretending the deal doesn't exist because of your Israel conspiracy theories and not because Iran refused to re-sign. trump did what Trump wanted because he thought it would be good for his reputation, not because some Jews made him.

Why did you post an article from Aug after I posted a recent article saying they want to return to negotiations?
 

Frankfooter

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So the quotes you previously posted from Khalidi?
But sure, post an op/ed from aljazeera as if it is truth.

A million Jews being ethnically cleansed from their Arab homes because of open anti-semitism at the same time doesn't seem to bother you.
The way 5 million Palestinian refugees who were ethnically cleansed and still barred from returning home?
Why do basic human rights only ever apply to Jews in your posts?
Why do you refuse to admit that those rights are supposed to apply to everyone?
 
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basketcase

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Why did you post an article from Aug after I posted a recent article saying they want to return to negotiations?
...
Because that was when Iran refused to re-enter the deal and there haven't been talks since. Pathetic that you choose to avoid talking about that.


But congrats on responding to something about Iran's nuclear program without trying to pretend it's Israel's fault.
 

basketcase

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The way 5 million Palestinian refugees who were ethnically cleansed and still barred from returning home?
...
Wow that's stupid. No ethnic cleansing and 700,000 people fled. I know the world confusing but twitter is not the same as a historian's work.

The number of refugees and descendants of Jews chased from their Arab homes is likely far more. The difference is that Israel and the Western World hasn't kept generations locked in camps dependant on a UN charity for basic services.
 

Frankfooter

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Wow that's stupid. No ethnic cleansing and 700,000 people fled. I know the world confusing but twitter is not the same as a historian's work.

The number of refugees and descendants of Jews chased from their Arab homes is likely far more. The difference is that Israel and the Western World hasn't kept generations locked in camps dependant on a UN charity for basic services.
Israel has 2 million Palestinians locked in the world's largest open air prison where every year or two they 'mow the lawn' and bomb them.
Israel has forced 5 million Palestinians to live as stateless refugees outside of Israel/Palestine.
And another 4 million living as stateless refugees in there own home, illegally occupied, country.

Gaza: Israel’s ‘Open-Air Prison’ at 15

You're really working that moral high ground here again.
 
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basketcase

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Um, that's old news.
I already posted this.
Iran ready to conclude JCPOA negotiations promptly

Try to stay with it.
Except there are no talks going on. Iran walked away from the last offer from the mediator and clearly stated it was because they didn't want the UN investigating NPT violations.


p.s. In all your obsession about nuclear threats, I see you forgot to post on the fighting between two nuclear powers last week.
 

basketcase

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Israel has...
Sorry but the PLO and Arab states are the ones keeping Palestinian refugees in camps without rights, just like the Arab states are the ones who ethnically cleansed their Jewish populations over some Jews living somewhere else in the Middle East.

Do you think Canada should keep descendants of Palestinian refugees locked up without rights as well?
 
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