Nothing I disagree with. My sarcastic examples were to point out the incoherence of your "we need the Depression to make things better" idea.
Reducing the Defense Budget to help with domestic policy is something I support.
The Trump Presidency Is Over
- Thread starter Knuckle Ball
- Start date
Reducing the Defense Budget to help with domestic policy is something I support.
Actually I didn't say it was needed. What Franky asked was when did things getting worse lead to better things. I gave him a great example.
Perhaps the paying attention to history so it isn't repeated would be a good thing. But big international corporations don't care about anything but the bottom line. Hell it's the law in the USA.
Glad you support reducing the defense budget. The only way that happens is if a candidate who doesn't take there money gets in.
Moving left by......
Supporting the wars, repeal of Glass/Seagal, making the Bush tax cuts permanent, refusal to even put Medicare for all to a vote, taking money from all special interests including military providers, condoning the Bush Torture (Pelosi knew) and putting in place a renamed RomneyCare which is a corporate subsidy to Insurance companies without price controls.
Whole Lotta right wing going on there. Even Obama came out and stated he governed like a moderate Reagan Republican.
4 years ago Medicare for all, Debt reform, tuition reform, minimum wage reform weren't even on the table. Now it's the topics besides Trump of this campaign.
Sanders absolutely changed the Overton Window.
Yes!
1. If you decide to bring your movement to the Dem primary then that’s part of the social contract of the party’s allowing you to run on their platform...and that also applies to your followers. If this is what you’re gonna do then go start your own party.
2. You’re view is quite black and white: you believe that anything less than a complete embrace of your views is capitulating to the enemy. I disagree with you. I think, for example, there is an enormous difference between Biden’s plan to expand Obamacare vs Trump’s plan to destroy it. This is what people are complaining about when they say everything with you guys is, “You’re way or the highway.” I would have supported Bernie if he was the nominee; for you to refuse to do the same is a betrayal of the commitment you made to the party when you signed up to run.
3. Even your own leader, Bernie Sanders, has repeatedly declared Trump to be the most dangerous president in modern American history.” He has committed to support whomever the Dem nominee is in the interest of defeating Donald Trump. Clearly he sees a gigantic difference between Trump and Biden. Even Bernie doesn’t think it’s him or nothing...but somehow you guys do.
Great, so you want years of misery like the depression in the hope that something better comes out of it?
You realize you'll likely be dead before its recovered, don't you?
Did the Holocaust produce any good things?
Seriously, B1000...you are truly Mr Burn It All Down! You believe that because bad things can lead to the creation of good things then the more bad things we have the better off we are in the long run.
I prefer not to follow your path to its ultimate conclusion.
The creation of Israel? A home land for the Jewish people? Which has produced enough Nobel Prize winners and scientific breakthroughs to easily justify its existence? As well as being a beachhead for democracy in the ME?Did the Holocaust produce any good things?
Seriously, B1000...you are truly Mr Burn It All Down! You believe that because bad things can lead to the creation of good things then the more bad things we have the better off we are in the long run.
I prefer not to follow your path to its ultimate conclusion.
Sometimes people and complacent and stupid and need things to go to shit to realize things can and should be better. Bad things will always happen and bad times with always occur. It's how you use those lessons that counts.
Right now the donor class wants you to ignore the real problems and blame Trump for systemic failures built by a generation of greed. And go back to those failures.
That's a mistake.
Though you may disagree, I hope you will understand that many of us do not wish to be dragged down with your death cult.
You... really don't know any political history do you?
I'd be curious to see that quote. But "not as left as I like" is not the same as "more left than they were 20 years ago". I'm not sure why you have so much trouble with that idea, maybe you need to look at some more history.
Sanders absolutely changed the Overton Window.[/QUOTE]
All of which have been things people have been pushing in the Democratic party for years. Have they moved forward? Of course? Did Bernie invent them? Nonsense.
Sanders moved the Overton Window in that he showed you may not WIN on these topics, but they aren't guaranteed losers. That was helpful. He saw a chance and took the baton and moved it forward. That's good! It is why I voted for him in the 2016 primary.
But every single one of those had a constituency within the Democratic party before that. He helped, and that ain't nothing. But the idea he is some kind of lone crusader without with none of these would ever have been in play is nonsense to anyone who actually pays attention to things. Again, by not engaging with the Democratic party, you've let yourself be tricked into this "great man" theory that is at odds with reality.
That's because Bernie is basically a New Deal Democrat. He's solidly on the left wing of the Democratic Party (I don't think he has ever quite had the most left-most position by voting record, but he is a 30 year politician and insider, so he may have for one or two years.) He knows that there is a system and he needs to work with it and he only gets to do what he does by working with the Dems. He isn't super great at coalitions, but he also is a professional politician and very aware of how the votes go. He also knows the Republicans aren't helpful to the things he cares about these days.
That's why he never votes against the Democrats when it matters. The whole "The Democrats are the problem" is mostly his marketing campaign. He has never, as far as I know, been the deciding vote on a bill where he went against the Democratic party. He does his dramatic "votes of principle" when they are going to pass or fail 80/90 percent. That way it is safe. He has to maintain his brand, but he isn't trying to screw the party and make himself really an enemy (or accidentally help the Republicans). He usually (not always) votes against war when is a Republican one and usually (not always) for war when it is Democrats.
The problem is that his branding is "against the Dems as well and the whole damn establishment" and so he doesn't want to hype the fact he is willing to compromise.
Take the debate Sunday. He up front told Biden what the questions he will ask are so that Biden can prepare. That means Biden can give decent enough answers, then Bernie can say he got some concessions from Biden and bow out Tuesday or Wednesday. That is certainly what the kabuki looks like right now. I don't know if Sanders wants to push on and get creamed in Florida and elsewhere on the 17th.
Absolutely. But "sometimes we can take advantage of a bad thing to forge ahead to something good" is not the same as "make sure things get as bad as possible, THEN THEY'LL SEE!" which is what you seem to be angling for.
One is an acknowledgement of an imperfect world and how to make it better and the other is sociopathy.
So your idea is, if we just let Trump make things worse, then everyone will suffer enough to never consider going back again. Even though three years of Trump made Bernie a *less* viable candidate because people were just like "holy fuck make it stop if we can at least get back to Biden things would be better than this shit show".
Exactly.
Indeed...if that theory were true we would not be seeing the rise of neo-Nazi groups across the US and Europe. Apparently they didn’t learn the first time.
Except many just see it as switching back from one shitshow to another.
When you vote for someone it's giving them permission to enact their policies. Sanders supporters don't agree with Biden's policies. So they will withhold their permission.
At least enough to cause Biden to lose. That's the reality if Biden is the nominee and won't enact things to make their lives better.
What you don't realize is the movement is beyond Sanders now. It's not ending with him. It will continue with the grassroots and new leadership.
Many won't vote for Biden. Period. And there is nothing you can say to make them do it.
All of which have been things people have been pushing in the Democratic party for years. Have they moved forward? Of course? Did Bernie invent them? Nonsense.
Sanders moved the Overton Window in that he showed you may not WIN on these topics, but they aren't guaranteed losers. That was helpful. He saw a chance and took the baton and moved it forward. That's good! It is why I voted for him in the 2016 primary.
But every single one of those had a constituency within the Democratic party before that. He helped, and that ain't nothing. But the idea he is some kind of lone crusader without with none of these would ever have been in play is nonsense to anyone who actually pays attention to things. Again, by not engaging with the Democratic party, you've let yourself be tricked into this "great man" theory that is at odds with reality.[/QUOTE]
All of the above are true.
Obama said it at an event out of office. Google the quote and the reportage exists.
He isn't the lone crusader, but he has been the most consistent one.
Nobody is rooting for pandemic panic, we are just watching Trump expose himself as an undeniable idiot with his various irrational responses. This is not a right vs left issue, no matter how hard you desperately try to spin it
Here is sampling of Trump's idiocy so far....
A real timeline in Trump's own publicly recorded words regarding COVID-19, (Don't forget he golfed through most of it):
January 22: “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. It’s going to be just fine.”
February 2: “We pretty much shut it down coming in from China.”
February 24: “The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA… Stock Market starting to look very good to me!”
February 25: “CDC and my Administration are doing a GREAT job of handling Coronavirus.”
February 25: “I think that's a problem that’s going to go away… They have studied it. They know very much. In fact, we’re very close to a vaccine.”
February 26: “The 15 (cases in the US) within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero.”
February 26: “We're going very substantially down, not up.”
February 27: “One day it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.”
February 28: “We're ordering a lot of supplies. We're ordering a lot of, uh, elements that frankly we wouldn't be ordering unless it was something like this. But we're ordering a lot of different elements of medical.”
March 2: “You take a solid flu vaccine, you don't think that could have an impact, or much of an impact, on corona?”
March 2: “A lot of things are happening, a lot of very exciting things are happening and they’re happening very rapidly.”
March 4: “If we have thousands or hundreds of thousands of people that get better just by, you know, sitting around and even going to work — some of them go to work, but they get better.”
March 5: “I NEVER said people that are feeling sick should go to work.”
March 5: “The United States… has, as of now, only 129 cases… and 11 deaths. We are working very hard to keep these numbers as low as possible!”
March 6: “I think we’re doing a really good job in this country at keeping it down… a tremendous job at keeping it down.”
March 6: “Anybody right now, and yesterday, anybody that needs a test gets a test. They’re there. And the tests are beautiful…. the tests are all perfect like the letter was perfect. The transcription was perfect. Right? This was not as perfect as that but pretty good.”
March 6: “I like this stuff. I really get it. People are surprised that I understand it… Every one of these doctors said, ‘How do you know so much about this?’ Maybe I have a natural ability. Maybe I should have done that instead of running for president.”
March 6: “I don't need to have the numbers double because of one ship that wasn't our fault.”
March 8: “We have a perfectly coordinated and fine tuned plan at the White House for our attack on CoronaVirus.”
March 9: “This blindsided the world.”
A real timeline in Trump's own publicly recorded words regarding COVID-19, (Don't forget he golfed through most of it):
January 22: “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. It’s going to be just fine.”
February 2: “We pretty much shut it down coming in from China.”
February 24: “The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA… Stock Market starting to look very good to me!”
February 25: “CDC and my Administration are doing a GREAT job of handling Coronavirus.”
February 25: “I think that's a problem that’s going to go away… They have studied it. They know very much. In fact, we’re very close to a vaccine.”
February 26: “The 15 (cases in the US) within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero.”
February 26: “We're going very substantially down, not up.”
February 27: “One day it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.”
February 28: “We're ordering a lot of supplies. We're ordering a lot of, uh, elements that frankly we wouldn't be ordering unless it was something like this. But we're ordering a lot of different elements of medical.”
March 2: “You take a solid flu vaccine, you don't think that could have an impact, or much of an impact, on corona?”
March 2: “A lot of things are happening, a lot of very exciting things are happening and they’re happening very rapidly.”
March 4: “If we have thousands or hundreds of thousands of people that get better just by, you know, sitting around and even going to work — some of them go to work, but they get better.”
March 5: “I NEVER said people that are feeling sick should go to work.”
March 5: “The United States… has, as of now, only 129 cases… and 11 deaths. We are working very hard to keep these numbers as low as possible!”
March 6: “I think we’re doing a really good job in this country at keeping it down… a tremendous job at keeping it down.”
March 6: “Anybody right now, and yesterday, anybody that needs a test gets a test. They’re there. And the tests are beautiful…. the tests are all perfect like the letter was perfect. The transcription was perfect. Right? This was not as perfect as that but pretty good.”
March 6: “I like this stuff. I really get it. People are surprised that I understand it… Every one of these doctors said, ‘How do you know so much about this?’ Maybe I have a natural ability. Maybe I should have done that instead of running for president.”
March 6: “I don't need to have the numbers double because of one ship that wasn't our fault.”
March 8: “We have a perfectly coordinated and fine tuned plan at the White House for our attack on CoronaVirus.”
March 9: “This blindsided the world.”
Most will vote to get rid of Trump.
Sanders laid the ground for Warren and is laying the ground for AOC.
You want to turn the US into Somalia through total systematic failure in order to hope that when it comes back it doesn't turn into Putin's America, or some form of the fascism Trump is edging towards.
https://time.com/5802828/plot-against-america-hbo-review/
OMG that is so stupid. The vast majority of Jewish Nobel prize winners were European or American. Doubtless, there would have been many more Nobel prize winners and scientific breakthroughs had the Holocaust never happened. An incalculable amount of brain power was lost to the world.
And as for Israel providing a beachead for democracy in the ME? Do you ever think about the stupid shit you post? It's as if you are so desperate trying to get the upper hand in whatever argument you are embroiled in, that you will say anything.
Look who is the one in hysterics now.
Because you know I'm right. The progressive vote in many cases is walking away.
