Sorry, I mean no offence when I say "no reason to complain". But, IMHO, 4 clients a day/5 days a week/44 weeks a year is a fair assessment of a "full-time job", yes, it is hard job and the pay ($100K) is fair for no-education hard job. If the girl sees only 2 clients per day on average, it is a part-time job and she gets paid fair part-time wage. 1 client a day - it is a hobby for her. So, she should have a regular job if she wants to be a "low-volume". And "4-months away" should not be a vacation, but just doing regular job. So, I guess, it is fair to say: full-time SP/MP earn about the same as regular clients here ($100K after tax), part-time earn proportionally less. What part-time SPs do in their own time is their own business: if they wish, they could do nothing and wait for clients, if not - get a full-time job or another partitive job. How about this as an idea: have 1-2 appointments per day and drive for Uber in between? No burnout whatsoever: one job is a nice "get-away" from another and it is possible to keep a full 40h/week employment schedule
Do you get jealous of her yearly earnings? Most escorts make more then thier clients?
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Telling sex workers about their business is classic "mansplaining". I wouldn't presume to know the particulars of a hair salon business model just because I get my hair cut there, same applies to hobbyists.
Tara - I'm sorry you and other have to put up with comments like the one from Fall. How clueless can one be? Sex work isn't like working at Home Depot for god's sake. The physical and emotional toll of selling a fantasy (on top of constant fear of possibly meeting a bad guy) is grueling unless you are a complete psychopath OR you put zero effort into the job which means you're terrible at it. Being a john is easy and I think that's why so many misunderstand the job that is being a sex worker. I don't pretend to understand everything that goes into it but I know enough to know that having 4 clients a day 5 days a week is no viable for any duration.
If sexwork was such an easy job as some make it seems to be, every lady would be doing it. Truth be told, this job is not for everyone and requires especially good compartmentalization skills of the lady. To offer a "good" service, she pretty much has to make herself believe (or at least act) that she's with her archetypal alpha male. And she has to do that perhaps several times a day with a broad range of customers.
I won't judge of their resulting income as that would be akin to debating whether it is right that Earth's gravity exerts 9.81N/kg of force on me : the market price is always right. But I will say to those ladies that can actually sell us the fantasy that we seek, props !
This is a very enlightening discussion. Surprising that SPs are not booking approx 4 x 1 hour appointments a day, Though I'd agree with miss Parker that it might result in burnout too soon.
So based on some off hand conversations, for Ottawa, we are possibly looking at 6 x HH (120) + 2 x h (200) + 1 x multihour (450) appointments a week. Possibly slightly more. That's about 1500 a week. Times 44 weeks, we are still above the 60K mark.
The 15k to 48k figure, if real, does seem to indicate room for improvement in management. What is the basis of calculation for this figure?
Sorry not trying to mansplain, rather trying to have it SP'lained to me.
So based on some off hand conversations, for Ottawa, we are possibly looking at 6 x HH (120) + 2 x h (200) + 1 x multihour (450) appointments a week. Possibly slightly more. That's about 1500 a week. Times 44 weeks, we are still above the 60K mark.
The 15k to 48k figure, if real, does seem to indicate room for improvement in management. What is the basis of calculation for this figure?
Sorry not trying to mansplain, rather trying to have it SP'lained to me.
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If I’ll do respect Fall your view on the industry is way out of touch. I also don’t think you’re really hearing me out. You’re making it seem like MA’s/SP’s choose to see 1-2, even zero clients a day. While some definitely prefer to be part time/low volume, many would kill to see let’s say 3 clients steadily everyday. Your ‘formula’ would be something from a perfect world. An MA/SP doesn’t just waltz in and suddenly have 4 clients a day fall in her lap. Does it happen? Sure! Except this is very rare as I explained to you earlier. Also I’m not sure if I have stressed it enough that this bizz is super inconsistent/up & down/hot & cold, wishy washy, do you get the picture yet? I’m also going to assume that you don’t know that when an MA makes her schedule for the spas she needs to commit to them. If she scheduled herself to be there from 12pm-8pm she needs to stay there from beginning to end...whether she happens to see 0-6 clients. Therefore she won’t have a chance to supplement her income with Uber during that time.
Something else that isn’t discussed, there’s hours of labour off the books, and I’m not just talking about doing our hair & makeup. Our job doesn’t start when you arrive and end when we kiss you goodbye.
Behind the scenes there’s A LOT of work that I don’t want to get too much into otherwise we’ll get into a rabbit hole. 4 clients 1 hour sessions does not equal only 4 hours of labour not even close!
Your thinking & expectations are just too unrealistic and make no sense. With your math I’d be fucking rich! $280 * 20 * 44 = $246,400! I’m not even close to that at the end of the year (and I’m established!). I suppose I’m not full time then or I’m a big slacker or I’m doing something wrong?
Anyway, I’m not here to argue with anyone, I’m here to shed some light on this industry on topics that you have brought up yourselves.
I was just thinking about that. So for about 8 hours of appointments we are looking at about 30 hours work for marketing / customer service / upkeep / etc. That pans out to worse than most industrial ratios of 1:2.5, product to overheads. 1:3.75 is easily sustainable in the long run. It is also definitely reducible. And if you are not working full time it will go even higher (driving the earnings lower).
Asking your service provider how much they make in a year is a bit intrusive. It's kind of odd asking the same of your dentist, doctor, repair person etc...would you felt uncomfortable if someone asked you how much you make? It can be a very judgmental approach too
Most workers I know who have been in the business for a while, and myself pay income tax. We have accountants and declare our earnings (so we can get a mortgage on property or whatever reason) I declare both this industry and my 2 other incomes (both trades) CRA doesn't care whatever it is your do btw they just want your tax money. It's a business so many of us workers see it that way & pay a tax. And to make money you have to pay : advertising, maintenance (this can take a ton of time !) work phones, incalls, cabs, photoshoots, touring for those that do, it adds up!
Personally I mainly do this line of work due to the freedom it allows. Bills are paid, a bit of savings and maybe a treat once in a while (spa day, a nice dinner, time off to do my hobbies) More freedom to do the things I enjoy : my other incomes, photography, travel (as my work goes with me), cooking, spending time with family and friends and all with putting money ON my CC and avoiding debt. Every worker is different and have different goals.
I only see a few clients a week on multi hour bookings because that's what I am comfortable with & financially steady that way. I keep note of every dollar I make and put a certain percentage after bills and taxes into savings. I personally can't see more than a few clients a week and usually just one a day on the days I do work. Everyone's comfort and energy levels are varied.
Like Tara Parker said, there is so much work that goes into the session itself. Hours of online work, emails, advertising, etc. And getting ready, transportation for those of us who rent spaces instead of home. Especially independent SP's and MA's it's all on us to bring in our clients and brand. Freelance in any field is a tough gig - one week it's great and maybe the next it's super slow. The market has changed a ton in the last few years too. It's not what it used to be.
Challenge for you folks here suggesting how our business works, try to be an independent service provider or MA for one week. Just give it a try - let me know it works out for you
Most workers I know who have been in the business for a while, and myself pay income tax. We have accountants and declare our earnings (so we can get a mortgage on property or whatever reason) I declare both this industry and my 2 other incomes (both trades) CRA doesn't care whatever it is your do btw they just want your tax money. It's a business so many of us workers see it that way & pay a tax. And to make money you have to pay : advertising, maintenance (this can take a ton of time !) work phones, incalls, cabs, photoshoots, touring for those that do, it adds up!
Personally I mainly do this line of work due to the freedom it allows. Bills are paid, a bit of savings and maybe a treat once in a while (spa day, a nice dinner, time off to do my hobbies) More freedom to do the things I enjoy : my other incomes, photography, travel (as my work goes with me), cooking, spending time with family and friends and all with putting money ON my CC and avoiding debt. Every worker is different and have different goals.
I only see a few clients a week on multi hour bookings because that's what I am comfortable with & financially steady that way. I keep note of every dollar I make and put a certain percentage after bills and taxes into savings. I personally can't see more than a few clients a week and usually just one a day on the days I do work. Everyone's comfort and energy levels are varied.
Like Tara Parker said, there is so much work that goes into the session itself. Hours of online work, emails, advertising, etc. And getting ready, transportation for those of us who rent spaces instead of home. Especially independent SP's and MA's it's all on us to bring in our clients and brand. Freelance in any field is a tough gig - one week it's great and maybe the next it's super slow. The market has changed a ton in the last few years too. It's not what it used to be.
Challenge for you folks here suggesting how our business works, try to be an independent service provider or MA for one week. Just give it a try - let me know it works out for you
Alright, Challenge accepted!! Lets show them how this business is run. Now which of you guys is willing to pay to see a sad schlong instead of a pretty kitty? Ladies? Honestly if I was a proud owner of a kitty, I would never get any work done. SP/MA wise or otherwise. https://images.app.goo.gl/AqhqZ2oXDLPN7uWC9Challenge for you folks here suggesting how our business works, try to be an independent service provider or MA for one week. Just give it a try - let me know it works out for you
On a more serious note, no disrespect meant. When I go see a dentist, I honestly do wonder what the economics is behind the scene. And when I know a dentist that is not "my dentist" I do talk over the economics with him/her. Just curiosity. And thank you ladies, for engaging on this forum.
Taking into account everything that has been discussed here, that seems a little optimistic. For one, no expenses are being accounted for.
Also, presumably, the hair and makeup regimen for the business will have to be more rigorous than just personal.
Also, presumably, the hair and makeup regimen for the business will have to be more rigorous than just personal.
Some here are confusing employment with being self-employed. As a self-employed person I have significant business-expenses, I do not have benefits such as, medical, dental, EI, CPP, vacation days, holidays nor sick days.
I worked it out for myself and my expenses are roughly 30-35%. This sounds incredible comparatively to other businesses until you consider that to book and deliver a one hour session, I put in roughly 2.5 hours of labour. This does not account for late clients, no-shows and those who overstay. So you can take 70% of my hourly rate and divide that by 2.5%. Hmmm not so great now is it?
But wait, we forgot about taxes! Even with some creative accounting that’s another few percent. And ouff it turns out benefits according to Benefits Canada are a whopping 35% including days off!!!
Consider the risks involved, the need to be available at all hours, weekdays and weekends. Consider the toll on our physical and emotional well being. Consider the cost to someone’s lifestyle including having friends and family. Consider the actual job and if you could do it?
Now consider what it takes to be successful as a sex worker. To be considered in a higher-tier and make 3-500 hr. The years it takes to build to that point. Personality, intellect, education, other talents are absolutely critical so please don’t say we’re not required to have a brain or education.
There’s a lot more to be said on this topic such as the fact that many providers are women who are using their income to provide for families rather than living off social programs that cost taxpayers. And the fact that this is literally the only profession, at least in North America and parts of Europe with real social mobility and where a woman can earn more than a man.
Without getting too hot under the collar, many need to be educated before beginning to begrudge a sex worker their earnings. We absolutely earned them and deserve every penny.
I worked it out for myself and my expenses are roughly 30-35%. This sounds incredible comparatively to other businesses until you consider that to book and deliver a one hour session, I put in roughly 2.5 hours of labour. This does not account for late clients, no-shows and those who overstay. So you can take 70% of my hourly rate and divide that by 2.5%. Hmmm not so great now is it?
But wait, we forgot about taxes! Even with some creative accounting that’s another few percent. And ouff it turns out benefits according to Benefits Canada are a whopping 35% including days off!!!
Consider the risks involved, the need to be available at all hours, weekdays and weekends. Consider the toll on our physical and emotional well being. Consider the cost to someone’s lifestyle including having friends and family. Consider the actual job and if you could do it?
Now consider what it takes to be successful as a sex worker. To be considered in a higher-tier and make 3-500 hr. The years it takes to build to that point. Personality, intellect, education, other talents are absolutely critical so please don’t say we’re not required to have a brain or education.
There’s a lot more to be said on this topic such as the fact that many providers are women who are using their income to provide for families rather than living off social programs that cost taxpayers. And the fact that this is literally the only profession, at least in North America and parts of Europe with real social mobility and where a woman can earn more than a man.
Without getting too hot under the collar, many need to be educated before beginning to begrudge a sex worker their earnings. We absolutely earned them and deserve every penny.
:encouragement:
Ur not, ignore jf. Good contribution from ladies and gents in civil manner.
O
OnTheWayOut
I have to honestly say that I have never left an appointment with an SP wondering how much money she makes. If her income is a concern for you, please consider finding a new hobby!
I don't know much about that only that one lady I saw in a spa that use to be SP told me she was making 20k/month as an SP.
20k is about 200K+/years. She said that is why she was still doing it at 37 even if she was well educated(university grade)
(BTW, that a lot more then what I make after 25+ years working...)
So don't know if she was lying but that was my only info on that subject...
20k is about 200K+/years. She said that is why she was still doing it at 37 even if she was well educated(university grade)
(BTW, that a lot more then what I make after 25+ years working...)
So don't know if she was lying but that was my only info on that subject...
So again, you’re comparing employment income with business income. These are not the same things, not even remotely. Ask anyone who runs their own small business and they will tell you it’s a 24-7 endeavour and what someone grosses is not even close to what they net. 200k probably translates into more like 87k plus benefits after expenses.
Are there some escorts that can gross these numbers? Absolutely, but they are not the norm and those that do are likely making a lifestyle choice to live as an escort 24-7. This not as easy as you might think.
If you’re still unconvinced, I have an opening for a male to come and service clients, these will mostly be men and some will refuse to shower. You will be asked to do intimate things you don’t enjoy. You will have to be very self-motivated and positive, have excellent interpersonal, marketing and organizational skills, be charming, attentive and attractive, with an extremely high libido and diverse bedroom skills. You will have to develop a reputation for excellence, be trustworthy and consistent. Despite all this you will be called horrible names on a daily basis. You will likely have your real identity exposed by some jealous individual. You may be raped. You may encounter vicious people, possibly even serial killers. You will have to start low as many will insist you prove your value first. You will be undermined and critiqued publicly in a very personal and maybe embarrassing ways. You will be approached by drug dealers and pimps. You will fear for your safety at times. A lot of society will hate you. You may without explanation lose bank accounts, apartments, websites and other media you spent years building, be the target of police discrimination and even falsely charged. You will be stolen from. You will be dehumanized. You will in short be broken down to see what you can handle. And if you are very, very strong you can survive all this and maybe even become moderately successful from business standards, developing good clients who love and respect you. At which point people will resent your success and men will discuss the unfairness of it all. How they wish the market was different, say like Indonesia, where they could pay far less and get so much more.
The cost of a fair society with human freedom means you can’t have a woman’s body cheaply. And we have a right to raise the bar and become successful. If this seems backwards, ask yourself what you would want your sister or mother to earn in exchange for the sacrifices of being a sex worker?
Just reverse engineer it. She's a businesswoman. So humble Jane Smith from Grimsby is CEO of the vivacious Fiona Goodlay of Toronto, LLC. For Fiona to clear $100k per annum....
First, assume 2 months of down time holiday. Then assume 3 weeks per month for remaining 10 months. Assume 5 days per working week, or 15 working days per month. Thus 10 months x 15 days = 150 working days a year. Thus a lady must NET $666.67 per working day to earn $100k (100,000 / 150 = 666.67).
But alas, she has expenses. If an Indy assume $200 per day hotel, thus now she needs 867 a day. And she needs to advertise, say prorated to $20 a day now 887. And she needs additional materials, such as condoms, lube, makeup, body wash, gym memberships, etc., plus if she is working out of a hotel she likely will be eating more expensive food vs cooking at home. Thus easy to assume she has to bring in $1,000 a day to net $667 a day. And we haven't even considered taxes.
Thus 4 clients a day @ 250 yield per client = $1,000. 3 to 4 a day @ 300 per would do it too.
If she's working at an agency, earning 60% of the booking (thus 150 of the 250 fee per hour) and assuming much less overhead...just additional gym, makeup, etc, means she likely needs to bring in 700 per shift. This means she needs to see 4.67 x one hour bookings per shift (Again, assuming 15 working days a month at 10 months a year, as above). Half hour @ 150 booking fee means she yields 90 per half hour booking. Anyhow, you can do the math on what combination of half hour ($90) or full hour ($150) bookings she might need to cobble together for her to bring in $700 per shift.
Maths is the language of the universe. Unlocks many mysteries.
First, assume 2 months of down time holiday. Then assume 3 weeks per month for remaining 10 months. Assume 5 days per working week, or 15 working days per month. Thus 10 months x 15 days = 150 working days a year. Thus a lady must NET $666.67 per working day to earn $100k (100,000 / 150 = 666.67).
But alas, she has expenses. If an Indy assume $200 per day hotel, thus now she needs 867 a day. And she needs to advertise, say prorated to $20 a day now 887. And she needs additional materials, such as condoms, lube, makeup, body wash, gym memberships, etc., plus if she is working out of a hotel she likely will be eating more expensive food vs cooking at home. Thus easy to assume she has to bring in $1,000 a day to net $667 a day. And we haven't even considered taxes.
Thus 4 clients a day @ 250 yield per client = $1,000. 3 to 4 a day @ 300 per would do it too.
If she's working at an agency, earning 60% of the booking (thus 150 of the 250 fee per hour) and assuming much less overhead...just additional gym, makeup, etc, means she likely needs to bring in 700 per shift. This means she needs to see 4.67 x one hour bookings per shift (Again, assuming 15 working days a month at 10 months a year, as above). Half hour @ 150 booking fee means she yields 90 per half hour booking. Anyhow, you can do the math on what combination of half hour ($90) or full hour ($150) bookings she might need to cobble together for her to bring in $700 per shift.
Maths is the language of the universe. Unlocks many mysteries.
I think he means on average in a month.
Any particular day she could see up to 5 or 6 guys or perhaps 0...if she's the hot babe in town with a glowing review it's definitely possible for her to see 2 guys per day on a 4 day cycle.
Which comes up to 9-10 sex in a week. With preparation, it is at most 3 hours a day. Definitely not a full-time job, so, getting $50K a year sounds just right. Noone is expected to be able to live comfortably working part-time job.
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