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Rampant Welfare Fraud Is A Myth Ontario PCs Have Used To Vilify The Poor

Charlemagne

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2017
15,451
2,484
113
11/01/2018 14:33 EDT Updated 11/01/2018 16:43 EDT

Rampant Welfare Fraud Is A Myth Ontario PCs Have Used To Vilify The Poor

The last time the party exaggerated claims of widespread social assistance fraud, it do so in order to justify deep cuts.

Alexi White

Any day now, Ontario Social Services Minister Lisa MacLeod will release her promised reform plan for social assistance. Given the new Ford government has already rolled back recent social assistance enhancements and ended the basic income pilot, it seems likely that further cuts will be announced.

This is further evidenced by minister MacLeod's request for an auditor general investigation into "hundreds of millions of dollars" in social assistance fraud. Previous Conservative governments have used unsubstantiated claims of rampant welfare fraud to justify further cuts.

Two decades ago, Premier Mike Harris deliberately undermined public trust in the welfare system, villifying those in need in order to justify deep cuts and an oppressive program redesign. Ignoring the systemic causes of poverty, he and his ministers preached a worldview that saw vulnerable Ontarians as responsible for their own impoverishment. The Harris government often implied that the poor were irresponsible and untrustworthy with public funds, such as when Harris cut a $37 monthly nutrition allowance for pregnant women on social assistance so "the dollars don't go to beer."

Not satisfied with simply nurturing existing stigmas of poverty, Harris would do his utmost to add the stigma of criminality, painting the poor as greedy and dishonest. Each year, the Harris government released an annual Welfare Fraud Control Report showing that, for example, out of 311,000 welfare cases between 1998 and 1999, 17,000 cases saw benefits reduced or terminated because of investigations that "catch welfare cheats and deter others from thinking about cheating."

The Harris government often implied that the poor were irresponsible and untrustworthy with public funds.

This created the impression that fraud was detected in 5.5 per cent of welfare cases, when it was only overpayments that were detected. Overpayments may be due to fraud, but are far more often caused by confusion on the part of the recipient or caseworker error. The same report admits that there were only 747 convictions for social assistance fraud during this period — a mere 0.2 per cent of all cases. To inflate the statistics, the government positioned any discovery of an overpayment as a case of fraud.

When one first hears about social assistance overpayments, it is not unusual to surmise that nefarious actions are the cause. What is not widely understood, however, is that our social assistance system, by its very design, routinely pays out incorrect amounts on an astonishing scale. From my own experience as a senior advisor to former Ontario Minister of Community and Social Services Helena Jaczek, I know that there are hundreds of millions of dollars in catalogued overpayments affecting about one in five of all active cases.

This is the result of an intrusive social assistance system governed by voluminous policy directives laying out hundreds of complicated rules. Even judges in fraud cases have written about the impenetrability of the often "Kafkaesque" regulations. Recipients must ensure their caseworker always has correct and detailed information on their shelter costs, utilities, living arrangements, assets, income, hospitalization and much more, even though none of us could begin to define these terms without sifting through pages of rules. In such a system, errors on the part of both recipients and caseworkers are "not only common but unavoidable."

By offering such a miserly and suffocating program, we are putting recipients in an impossible position.

Because of this complexity, an impoverished family often does not know it is receiving an overpayment, and that money is immediately spent on the necessities of life. Recovering those funds means holding back a portion of future income support, which could have dire consequences, such as an inability to pay a creditor or even eviction. Research on the small number who do commit social assistance fraud suggests that the main cause is survival. By offering such a miserly and suffocating program, we are putting recipients in an impossible position.

Compare this to income tax fraud, which sees only a few dozen convictions a year across all tax filers in Canada. Those who don't pay their fair share of tax can hire a team of lawyers to defend them and are regularly forgiven for not understanding the complexities of the income-reporting requirements.

Sadly, by playing to the public's worst instincts, Mike Harris managed to change the very way we think about social assistance for a generation. Doug Ford's government "for the people" now has the chance to take a different approach, simplify social assistance and provide greater dignity to over a million vulnerable Ontarians.

https://m.huffingtonpost.ca/alexi-white/welfare-fraud-ontario-conservatives_a_23577276/?utm_campaign=canada_evergreen&ncid=fcbklnkcahpmg00000001&fbclid=IwAR3pm9TiDcoY8DLV0LBbgU4KLCDiYJIxdArumxLynyOBWNr5S4gJ1QWFya8
 

K Douglas

Half Man Half Amazing
Jan 5, 2005
26,293
6,581
113
Room 112
Over the past two decades I've been personally made aware of three welfare frauds - all of quite significant proportion. I reported one, nothing happened. I have a friend who works for TCH I've heard so many stories from him. People know how to game the system. I don't want to make a blanket statement that fraud is rampant but it is a problem.
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
59,931
6,359
113
Just like the millions of illegal voters and caravans of bad hombres?

The right plays to a people who get angry that other people might get something they don't. Of course they are really the party of big businesses who profit from screwing over the people who's anger got them elected.
 

nottyboi

Well-known member
May 14, 2008
22,447
1,331
113
Over the past two decades I've been personally made aware of three welfare frauds - all of quite significant proportion. I reported one, nothing happened. I have a friend who works for TCH I've heard so many stories from him. People know how to game the system. I don't want to make a blanket statement that fraud is rampant but it is a problem.

Insurance fraud is a problem, so we should close the insurance industry?
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
16,459
2,308
113
Insurance fraud is a problem, so we should close the insurance industry?
If the insurance industry had $300-$400 B in debt it would be closed down.

The Ont Liberals created such a mess, that tough choices will need to be made
And for a long time!
No One can continue to borrow forever
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
81,442
18,101
113
If the insurance industry had $300-$400 B in debt it would be closed down.

The Ont Liberals created such a mess, that tough choices will need to be made
And for a long time!
None can continue to borrow forever
And you really think a guy who ran his family business into the ground, cheated his way to party leadership and the first thing he does is give himself a contract for the family business is really going to turn it around?
You have repeatedly stated that only the Canadian federal liberals have ever enacted the policies you back yet you still think the conservatives will do what you want.
 

nottyboi

Well-known member
May 14, 2008
22,447
1,331
113
If the insurance industry had $300-$400 B in debt it would be closed down.

The Ont Liberals created such a mess, that tough choices will need to be made
And for a long time!
None can continue to borrow forever
This is the short sighted idiocy of the right. You really think cutting welfare, and making poor people poorer and more despearate is going to save money? What about the healthcare costs and and associated costs of crime? Fuck me. Ontario has a 600B economy stop getting your knickers in a knot over debt.
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
16,459
2,308
113
This is the short sighted idiocy of the right. You really think cutting welfare, and making poor people poorer and more despearate is going to save money? What about the healthcare costs and and associated costs of crime? Fuck me. Ontario has a 600B economy stop getting your knickers in a knot over debt.
Short sighted?
Ignoring debt is about as short sighted as one can get.
Whether you like it or not this provinces has a debt burden which impact the ability to provide health care, education and infrastructure replacement.
You know, the stuff you take for granted

If your really so pissed about this, then ask Granny Wynn how she could have been so damn irresponsible.
The bill always comes due
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
16,459
2,308
113
And you really think a guy who ran his family business into the ground, cheated his way to party leadership and the first thing he does is give himself a contract for the family business is really going to turn it around?
I have serious doubts anyone can fix this unholy mess, however the first step is to cut cost.
The status quo will definitely result in disaster

You have repeatedly stated that only the Canadian federal liberals have ever enacted the policies you back yet you still think the conservatives will do what you want.
Look stupid, do not quote me at all if you are not going to get it right & you never get it right
How many times do I need to tell you? Do Not Misrepresent me
 

nottyboi

Well-known member
May 14, 2008
22,447
1,331
113
Short sighted?
Ignoring debt is about as short sighted as one can get.
Whether you like it or not this provinces has a debt burden which impact the ability to provide health care, education and infrastructure replacement.
You know, the stuff you take for granted

If your really so pissed about this, then ask Granny Wynn how she could have been so damn irresponsible.
The bill always comes due
Theres many much larger cost items that can be cut, the doctors need to be taken on, and medical costs cut. If our healthcare spending cannot be brought under control nothing else really matters. Education is another one ripe for transformation.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
81,442
18,101
113

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
16,459
2,308
113
You're a pathetic broken record. Everything is the fault of the Liberals and there was no such thing as welfare under the Conservatives.
You are the pathetic one if you you can not understand how our debt ballooned under the irresponsible liberals.
Sadley welfare will always exist. Ford is just going to pudently trim it back.

Every program the govt runs has to be scrutinized for cost savings
Granny Wynn spent all the money already & borrowed without a care for the future
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
16,459
2,308
113
Theres many much larger cost items that can be cut, the doctors need to be taken on, and medical costs cut. If our healthcare spending cannot be brought under control nothing else really matters. Education is another one ripe for transformation.
Every program the govt runs has to be scrutinized for cost savings
Granny Wynn spent all the money already & borrowed without a care for the future

Given a choice between a cut to their health care (also their kids health care) or to welfare,what do you think the majority of Ont voters would choose?
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
81,442
18,101
113
Learn some economics then get back to us
Your Friedman economics are really tired, just as your lame insults are sad.
You don't have a single idea that hasn't been tried multiple times and failed each and every time.

The closest you can find as a model for what you preach has been the Martin liberals.
And yet you're still a conservative supporter.
Sad.
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
59,931
6,359
113
You are the pathetic one if you you can not understand how our debt ballooned under the irresponsible liberals....
And will balloon further under the clueless Ford but I'm sure you won't consider that an issue.

Things such as putting out wasteful road signs contract to his personal business should be criticized by anyone concerned about accountability and reduced spending but you won't make a peep about it.
 

lomotil

Well-known member
Mar 14, 2004
6,310
1,194
113
Oblivion
Insurance fraud is a problem, so we should close the insurance industry?
The op was talking about insurance fraud. Yes there exists massive fraud in our society, including insurance, white collar crime, black market, immigration and welfare cheats to name a few. Welfare fraud in Ontario is massive in the medical, dental, undeclared income and housing areas etc. For example some enterprising Ontario Works or ODSP receipients rents out their government subsidized housing in many cases free housing for cash. The government is aware of the fraud but takes cautious steps in addressing it.
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
16,459
2,308
113
And will balloon further under the clueless Ford but I'm sure you won't consider that an issue.
Look, he was the only option who did not promise increased spending. The best choice out of three bad choices. The other two options were totally unacceptable to the electorate
He is cutting sending, but that involves headcount & that is expensive
Getting back to a balanced budget will be a challenge & likely take four years, a economic slow down a big risk. The monstrous debt will continue to grow, thanks Kathleen
By then he will have also worn out his welcome & the lonnie left can resume their march towards provincial insolvency


Things such as putting out wasteful road signs contract to his personal business should be criticized by anyone concerned about accountability and reduced spending but you won't make a peep about it.
Be sure to bring that up in fours years
 
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