Sweden: Riots erupt in Stockholm neighborhood

[Butler1000]

The bible is nuts too. The issue is how modern day people interpret each text. There are people in Alabama who interpret the bible in a homophobic and misogynistic way. There are Muslims in Don Mills who interpret the Koran in accordance with 21st Century Canadian values.

Absolutely correct. I'm not sure why you and others keep trying to use Christianity as the basis for a counter argument with an Atheist. Everytime the you say a religion does bad things I will agree with you, say so what and continue on.

I've also in the past condemned the Westborough church. Stated I thought Waco was a good thing. Called for the end of Catholic School funding.

Christianity for the most part has at least gone through a Reformation. And pruned back the worst of the old testament. Islam hasn't. Feel free to post a link to someone who has rewritten the Koran. I haven't heard of it.

 

[Frankfooter]

You epitomize willful blindness. Your reply to Bulter is a deflection. Why do you feel compelled to do this? He said MASS immigration from Islamic nations is NOT GOOD because the teachings are held STRONGLY and LITERALLY which is incompatible with Liberal Democracies.

You agree?

Mass emigration is never good.
Muslims have integrated successfully here previously and there is no reason why they won't again.

But why won't you address the root of the problem, aggressive US 'interventions' that have destabilized the region and caused people to flee.
You can complain about it, but until things settle down there people will flee the war and destruction.

 

[Butler1000]

Mass emigration is never good.
Muslims have integrated successfully here previously and there is no reason why they won't again.

But why won't you address the root of the problem, aggressive US 'interventions' that have destabilized the region and caused people to flee.
You can complain about it, but until things settle down there people will flee the war and destruction.

They integrated because they wanted to come here. And we're vetted. And had to pass a stringent points system. In other words no ghettos, no lack of employment, and no reason for unrest.

But that takes nothing away from the fact that once the numbers reach certain levels they try to impose Sharia law. Happens all the time. I actually just finished watching a Ted Talk from a Finnish/Pakistani third generation speaker. A female. Who spoke of the discrimination and threats she recieved as a female singer from the Muslim community there. To the point she had to quit. She has since become a speaker and advocate for females in Europe. She spoke of pressure(not her family, who supported her) from without to conform, to submit. It was a really good an impassioned talk.

Check out the Ted Talks on youtube on this subject. There are several.

 

[mandrill]

They integrated because they wanted to come here. And we're vetted. And had to pass a stringent points system. In other words no ghettos, no lack of employment, and no reason for unrest.

But that takes nothing away from the fact that once the numbers reach certain levels they try to impose Sharia law. Happens all the time. I actually just finished watching a Ted Talk from a Finnish/Pakistani third generation speaker. A female. Who spoke of the discrimination and threats she recieved as a female singer from the Muslim community there. To the point she had to quit. She has since become a speaker and advocate for females in Europe. She spoke of pressure(not her family, who supported her) from without to conform, to submit. It was a really good an impassioned talk.

Check out the Ted Talks on youtube on this subject. There are several.

They don't, at least not here. There was a suggestion ten years ago and it was roundly rejected. And that's the last anyone ever heard of it.

The Muslims I see each time I stop by for junk food at Fairview are wealthy and westernized. Occasionally, you see women with head scarves.

 

[mandrill]

Absolutely correct. I'm not sure why you and others keep trying to use Christianity as the basis for a counter argument with an Atheist. Everytime the you say a religion does bad things I will agree with you, say so what and continue on.

I've also in the past condemned the Westborough church. Stated I thought Waco was a good thing. Called for the end of Catholic School funding.

Christianity for the most part has at least gone through a Reformation. And pruned back the worst of the old testament. Islam hasn't. Feel free to post a link to someone who has rewritten the Koran. I haven't heard of it.

That's funny. I've never heard you support a ban against fundamentalist Christians from Alabama coming to visit Canada. Can it be that some religions are more equal than others in your disapproving eyes?

 

[mandrill]

Could be, but did it escape your attention that the writer is from Norway, and perhaps English is not his first language.

The writers twitter account
https://twitter.com/zokrates

I don't think he's a Huff Post writer. I think he's an individual who may have submitted an unsolicited piece to their "comments" page.

 

[KBear]

Mass emigration is never good. ...
But why won't you address the root of the problem, aggressive US 'interventions' that have destabilized the region and caused people to flee.

The root reason people are leaving Africa could also be the population explosion in Africa, mixed in with corrupt governments, poverty, global warming, drought, failing ecosystems, etc.

 

[mandrill]

You epitomize willful blindness. Your reply to Bulter is a deflection. Why do you feel compelled to do this? He said MASS immigration from Islamic nations is NOT GOOD because the teachings are held STRONGLY and LITERALLY which is incompatible with Liberal Democracies.

You agree?

No. You failed to grasp the gist of what I was writing.

He said the tenets of Islam are incompatible with Western democracy. I said that the tenets of a religion are whatever the current interpretation of those tenets are from place to place and not necessarily what it written in the holy text. I added that there are interpretation of Christianity which are incompatible with Western democratic values and interpretations of Islam which are fully compatible. I gave examples.

 

[KBear]

I don't think he's a Huff Post writer. I think he's an individual who may have submitted an unsolicited piece to their "comments" page.

Seems to have many articles on the US site.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rene-zografos/

You'll need to find another reason to dismiss the article.

 

[Butler1000]

That's funny. I've never heard you support a ban against fundamentalist Christians from Alabama coming to visit Canada. Can it be that some religions are more equal than others in your disapproving eyes?

I never advocated banning muslims either. And I don't remember large swaths of refugees from Alabama clamouring to come to Canada.

But yes I have happily referred to Westborough members as homophobic idiots who should be the recipient of a good truncheon. And if any tried to come up with the intention of reinstituting the Lord's Prayer in schools I would happily denounce them.

Perhaps you would care to do the same for the Muslims who wanted the parallel Sharia Law in Ontario in 2004? And that was a mainstream Muslim group.

Or perhaps also you would care to comment on the mississauga school that allows Muslim prayer services on Fridays? You know, the one that seperates boy from girls(girls to the back) and menstruating girls separates again as, according to Islam "Unclean"? Great message to youth there and approved within a public school.

Feel free to justify the above. I will denounce it all.

 

[oldjones]

I guess I must repeat myself. My pleasure is not derived from violence in Sweden or any where else. It is not at the fact that many poor Mexican will get deported or that somepeople will get hurt by Trumps ban. It is at the silly people who still cannot understand simple concepts such as the problems in Africa and the ME are mostly caused by the people living in those places. Simply moving them into your home will not solve their problems or suddenly make them better people. My amusement is at the expense who never actually get involved at the grassroots level but talk as if they have intimate experience.

The #1 thing that is required for change is a desire to change.

Shame on you for pretending you care.

They're caused by poverty and banditry piling on the ceaseless power struggles of rival gangs. Same stuff that causes all wars and conflicts everywhere. No reason to single the folks of Africa and the East out for special blame and no help. Same stuff that made the West Wild and mostly lawless until just a century back. Of'course if you weren't white you kept on being victimized and killed a lot longer, right through nto this century. And all that in spite of the benign influence of Christian churches everywhere. In fact most lynch mob members were regular churchgoers just like their neighbours.

There is nothing unique about Islam, or uniform about the people who practice it They're as varied in their behaviour, goo, bad and evil as any and all Christians. Or any me4mbers of any religion or ethic group you care to name.

You are right though slow, simply moving folks into our homes won't make us or them into better people. And the poor immigrants who finally arrived in their Land of Dreams will inevitably find out, we're just like them and the folks they left behind. Just better off and cleaner.

Under our nice clothes we are as bigotted, racist and prejudiced as any of those who exploited and abused them for what they represented, never seeing them for the people they are.

The lesson we should have learned is that all that prosperity we enjoy, and jealously guard from them was built by draft-dodgers and refugees and economic migrants every bit as unlovely and scarey as the poor souls we've taken recently in. Or are now faddishly turning away.

Like the refugees, we need to learn there are no angels in the mirror or aanywhere else, only ordinary individuals, each one just trying to make tomorrow abit better than yesterday.

 

[Butler1000]

No, stupid. You failed to grasp the gist of what I was writing.

He said the tenets of Islam are incompatible with Western democracy. I said that the tenets of a religion are whatever the current interpretation of those tenets are from place to place and not necessarily what it written in the holy text. I added that there are interpretation of Christianity which are incompatible with Western democratic values and interpretations of Islam which are fully compatible. I gave examples.

And the tenets at this point being taught here seem to still be against Liberal Democracy.

The protests against the Sex Ed curriculum in parts of the city were Muslim dominated. The above example of codified misogyny within a prayer group is another. The 2004 attempt to add Sharia law to ontario. The mosque that was recently the site of a protest is now being investigated via a complaint for Hate crimes due to sermons given in 2016. Want more. That's just off the top of my head.

I'm sure there are lots of moderate Scientologists, Moonie, etal. No doubt most of Jim Jones followers were nice people too. They were and are also sheep.

And wolves love to use religion to gather in dinner.

 

[mandrill]

And the tenets at this point being taught here seem to still be against Liberal Democracy.

The protests against the Sex Ed curriculum in parts of the city were Muslim dominated. The above example of codified misogyny within a prayer group is another. The 2004 attempt to add Sharia law to ontario. The mosque that was recently the site of a protest is now being investigated via a complaint for Hate crimes due to sermons given in 2016. Want more. That's just off the top of my head.

I'm sure there are lots of moderate Scientologists, Moonie, etal. No doubt most of Jim Jones followers were nice people too. They were and are also sheep.

And wolves love to use religion to gather in dinner.

I think it's also a tenet of liberal democracy that there are plurality of beliefs and that religious adherence is acceptable. The 2004 Sharia Law initiative was a 1-off and failed, never to be revived. I don't agree with the school related stuff, but those examples are within my tolerance ambit in a multicultural society. If you check the Human Rights Code, you will find a duty to accommodate differing religious beliefs - maybe not in your elitist "liberal democracy", but in everybody else's. Fact is, we can't ever get exactly the society we wish for. There are always things you don't agree with.

And the mosque? Well, let's wait and see exactly what they did and how they react to being criticized.

Here's your problem. You go to the examples of other people's beliefs you don't agree with and you use that as your yardstick for the entire group. I suggest that there are spectrums of belief and adherence in any group and most of the Muslims I know are secularized.

 

[mandrill]

Seems to have many articles on the US site.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rene-zografos/

You'll need to find another reason to dismiss the article.

Point taken. He's an awful writer who has had other pieces published on the Huff Post site - for some reason. And this one was removed for a reason which is not clear but which you interpret as censorship by Huff Post.

He comments that increased immigration brings increased crime - which has been debated pro and con by other journalists on many previous occasions. And that he feels the press under-reports the problems to do with increased immigration. There is nothing new with his article. It's appallingly badly written. And it has very little content.

 

[basketcase]

And the tenets at this point being taught here seem to still be against Liberal Democracy. ....

Do you know many Canadian Muslims?

I've known quite a few. Some are westernized and pay mere lip service to their religion. Others are more religious but realize part of Sharia is to follow the laws of the land. I'd believe some of them promote hateful views in private. Sadly some Canadians of all stripes do the same. More significantly, kids raised in the Canadian system are likely to be raised with Canadian values no matter what their parents or grandparents learned before coming here.

And I have no issue with some Muslims peacefully lobbying the government to change the laws. Other groups do it all the time so why should we deny Muslims that right?

 

[Butler1000]

Do you know many Canadian Muslims?

I've known quite a few. Some are westernized and pay mere lip service to their religion. Others are more religious but realize part of Sharia is to follow the laws of the land. I'd believe some of them promote hateful views in private. Sadly some Canadians of all stripes do the same. More significantly, kids raised in the Canadian system are likely to be raised with Canadian values no matter what their parents or grandparents learned before coming here.

And I have no issue with some Muslims peacefully lobbying the government to change the laws. Other groups do it all the time so why should we deny Muslims that right?

Yes. I do. Some come to my Christmas party and drink up my scotch. I'm meeting with a group of friends including some Muslims on Saturday(IT crowd) for drinks and the game at a bar.

And I like them a lot. And they agree with me.

And I didn't say they couldn't lobby. Just that the concept of feeling the need for religious law is aberrant. And wrong.

 

[Smallcock]

They don't, at least not here. There was a suggestion ten years ago and it was roundly rejected. And that's the last anyone ever heard of it.

The Muslims I see each time I stop by for junk food at Fairview are wealthy and westernized. Occasionally, you see women with head scarves.

What you say is exactly what naive Europeans said before Muslims reached critical mass in their countries.

The suggestion 10 years ago was just a preview. If and when there are enough Muslims with strength in numbers and political clout, the dynamics change completely. You either don't understand or you underestimate the tribal nature of non-western cultures. You'd have to go back over a century in North America to get a glimpse of what it's like. Back then, it wasn't all about "American" or "Canadian" values. People would use terms like Anglo Saxon which is completely archaic today. It took generations of struggle, war, and economic fortunes to change.

 

[basketcase]

Yes. I do. Some come to my Christmas party and drink up my scotch.

Drink scotch? Do I have to wait until Christmas?

The fact that the Muslims you know will drink your scotch sort of undermines your blanket criticism of Muslims doesn't it?

 

[Butler1000]

Drink scotch? Do I have to wait until Christmas?

The fact that the Muslims you know will drink your scotch sort of undermines your blanket criticism of Muslims doesn't it?

Nope. Because it's my contention that the religion needs a Reformation. A moderation of the Old Testament type stuff. And that's exactly what my friends have voluntarily done. Chosen to remove the worst from their lives and beliefs and are happy to break bread with an Atheist like me. And calmly debate issues.

And yes drink my scotch at Christmas( I usually get a few bottles a year and I don't drink it so they happily take care of it for me).

Take it out of the public schools, the gov't and I'm good. What somebody does in their home(within the law) and how they choose to live their lives is their choice. But when you are impose it anywhere public or tax payer funded I draw the line.

The Charter interpretation is wrong in my opinion. Religious accommodation should not cover allowing the use of public spaces to preach. And to the prevent father's from watching their daughters swim. And teach 14 year old girls by doctrine that when they are menstruating they are unclean.

That is the difference.

 

[SkyRider]

Maybe there would be no riots if the Swedes volunteer to be slaves.

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.co...million-non-muslim-slaves-of-all-skin-colors/

[h=1]"The Arab slave trade: 200 million non-Muslim slaves from all colors and nationalities"[/h]