Most recent articles on prostitution related laws, opinions, comments

AK-47

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Mar 6, 2009
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In the 6
do you folks still think the provinces will enforce this failed law?
Its not the provinces, its the local police forces who will enforce it.

And yes, my guess is there will be sporadic police sweeps. I dont think cops will give much priority to prostitution, but you will get occassional police stings like they have in the US. And thats gonna be enough to bust some Johns and give them criminal records, which in turn will mean lots of guys giving up on the hobby
 

escapefromstress

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You can to listen to, or watch recordings of the Senate Meetings from the last 2 days here:

Title LCJC Meeting No. 45
Location Room 257, East Block
Event Date Wednesday, Oct 29, 2014
Actual Start Time Wednesday, Oct 29, 04:11 PM EDT
Actual End Time Wednesday, Oct 29, 06:22 PM EDT
Status Adjourned
Description Meeting No. 45 Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs

Bill C-36, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (Canada v. Bedford)

  • Edward Herold, Professor Emeritus, University of Guelph (As an Individual)
  • Bernard Lerhe (As an Individual)
  • Barbara Gosse, Senior Director, Research, Policy and Innovation (Canadian Women's Foundation)
  • The Honourable Andrew Swan, M.L.A., Minister of Justice and Attorney General (Government of Manitoba)

http://senparlvu.parl.gc.ca/Guide.as...46&Language=E#

Title LCJC Meeting No. 46
Location Room 257, East Block
Event Date Thursday, Oct 30, 2014
Actual Start Time Thursday, Oct 30, 10:24 AM EDT
Actual End Time Thursday, Oct 30, 12:12 PM EDT
Status Adjourned
Description Meeting No. 46 Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs

Bill C-36, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (Canada v. Bedford)

  • Ian M. Carter, Member of the Executive, Criminal Justice Section (Canadian Bar Association)
  • Gunilla S. Ekberg, Lawyer, University of Glasgow School of Law (As an Individual)
  • Gaylene Schellenberg, Lawyer, Legislation and Law Reform (Canadian Bar Association)

Consideration of a draft agenda (future business)

http://senparlvu.parl.gc.ca/Guide.as...46&Language=E#
 

canada-man

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Tuesday, November 4, 2014
2:00 p.m.

Bills — Third Reading
No. 1.
October 30, 2014—Third reading of Bill C-36, An Act to amend the Criminal Code in response to the Supreme Court of Canada decision in Attorney General of Canada v. Bedford and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/SEN/Chamber/412/OrderPaper/ord-e.htm
 

escapefromstress

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Ottawa

East end prostitution sweep nets 16 suspected male clients

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...d-male-clients

Ottawa police arrested 16 men in an overnight sweep of the Vanier district targetting what police describe as “community-identified prostitution and prostitution-related problems.”

Of those arrested, 13 qualified to attend the pre-charge diversion program, which includes attending “John School.”

The remaining three men were charged with a variety of offenses including possession of weapons dangerous to public peace, breach of recognizance, drive while suspended and possession of a controlled substance.
 

Siocnarf

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The remaining three men were charged with a variety of offenses including possession of weapons dangerous to public peace, breach of recognizance, drive while suspended and possession of a controlled substance.
So none of the suspects were actually charged for prostitution-related offense? So even if prostitution was completely legal they could still target it in that indirect way.
 

Siocnarf

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Yes, I just mean that even in a context where everything is legal, LE could still target prostitutes and client with other charge to repress the activity. Just another form of profiling.
 

wilbur

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Its not the provinces, its the local police forces who will enforce it.

And yes, my guess is there will be sporadic police sweeps. I dont think cops will give much priority to prostitution, but you will get occassional police stings like they have in the US. And thats gonna be enough to bust some Johns and give them criminal records, which in turn will mean lots of guys giving up on the hobby
Municipal police forces fall under the authority of the Provincial Attorney General. That office could instruct police to lay off.

In any case, police can arrest and charge all they want, but it is the Crown Prosecutor who prosecutes: takes the case to court, not the police. But if the Crown refuses to prosecute, the arrested parties have to be let go.


I think Senator Baker was alluding that, despite prostitutes being immune from prosecution, it doesn't stop police from arresting them for transacting in sex, and taking them to the station for booking and processing, and even having them spend a night in jail. The new law seems to allow for this because, whereas people selling sex are immune from prosecution, nothing says they cannot be arrested for breaking the law. So what he's saying is that arresting someone without any prospect of prosecution, let alone conviction, would be an abuse of process, or an unconstitutional act.

Also, a person who has been arrested winds up in police records, even though no conviction in a court of law has taken place. Since their files could be used against them, like increased scrutiny for other possible law violations, such people would be subject to harassment in order to discourage them from doing business.
 

Siocnarf

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The new law seems to allow for this because, whereas people selling sex are immune from prosecution, nothing says they cannot be arrested for breaking the law. So what he's saying is that arresting someone without any prospect of prosecution, let alone conviction, would be an abuse of process, or an unconstitutional act.
It doesn't need to say it in the law. As far as I understand you cannot be put under arrested if you cannot be charged. (Although they could probably detain her, but that's a different thing). The law says effectively that they are always innocent because they can never be found guilty. When the Canadian Bar Association testified this week they made it clear that they considered the sale to still be a lawful act. This is the national association of lawyers with more then 35 000 members including prosecutors and defense attorneys.

Some people are arguing that because of the way the law is worded, then prostitutes are criminals that are just not prosecuted. And that therefore they do not have the right of safety in their activity as found in Bedford. I do not agree with this position, because as I said they are always innocent. The law describes a crime, and then says effectively that those who sell their own sex are not guilty of this crime.

Normally these ''we will not prosecute you'' are decided by the provinces on a case by case basis. In that context the activity is a crime at the federal level and police can make arrests. In bill C-36 the criminal code says out of hand that these people are not guilty, therefore their own actions are legal.

The government will have to convince the court that it is acceptable to cause harm to innocent people who are supposedly involved in an activity against their will. This will be weighed against a vague moral well-being of society for which there is no tangible evidence. Good luck with that.
 

bobcat40

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It doesn't need to say it in the law. As far as I understand you cannot be put under arrested if you cannot be charged. (Although they could probably detain her, but that's a different thing). The law says effectively that they are always innocent because they can never be found guilty. When the Canadian Bar Association testified this week they made it clear that they considered the sale to still be a lawful act. This is the national association of lawyers with more then 35 000 members including prosecutors and defense attorneys.

Some people are arguing that because of the way the law is worded, then prostitutes are criminals that are just not prosecuted. And that therefore they do not have the right of safety in their activity as found in Bedford. I do not agree with this position, because as I said they are always innocent. The law describes a crime, and then says effectively that those who sell their own sex are not guilty of this crime.

Normally these ''we will not prosecute you'' are decided by the provinces on a case by case basis. In that context the activity is a crime at the federal level and police can make arrests. In bill C-36 the criminal code says out of hand that these people are not guilty, therefore their own actions are legal.

The government will have to convince the court that it is acceptable to cause harm to innocent people who are supposedly involved in an activity against their will. This will be weighed against a vague moral well-being of society for which there is no tangible evidence. Good luck with that.
The government is just trying to play with words to make the law seem more constitutional. Even if they are persons committing an unlawful act but given immunity - they are de facto committing a legal act. There is just no way around that because letting the government get away with this just allows them to draft laws that strip people of their charter rights.

As for purely just legislating morality - the supreme court has already ruled that parliament doesn't have absolutely power in this area. They must be able to demonstrate some kind of concrete harm. This makes sense as if they were given absolutely power to legislate, they could make everyone hail Steven Harper like Kim Jong on North Korea under the guise of "morality" and "Social Order".
 

wilbur

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It doesn't need to say it in the law. As far as I understand you cannot be put under arrested if you cannot be charged. (Although they could probably detain her, but that's a different thing).
The police can arrest and charge prostitutes under this bill. They can do so because section 286(1) makes no distinction between client and provider. However, a person can be exempted from prosecution, but until now, it is the prerogative of the Crown Prosecutor only, under the Provincial Attorney Genreal, to prosecute or to grant immunity. Section 286(5) grants that immunity but, strictly speaking, it is not up to police to invoke that section, as they do not have the prerogative of the Crown Prosecutor.

The law says effectively that they are always innocent because they can never be found guilty. When the Canadian Bar Association testified this week they made it clear that they considered the sale to still be a lawful act. This is the national association of lawyers with more then 35 000 members including prosecutors and defense attorneys.
But you are always innocent until proven guilty. In this case, you will never be found guilty. But it is not up to police to find someine guilty, its for the courts. The Law Society can say all they want, but the text says that it's illegal, including for prostitutes. Their conclusion is based on a matter of principle. That could be the basis to argue in front of the court that the law is unconstitutional, but before they do that, the law is quite clear: selling sex is as illegal as buying it.

Some people are arguing that because of the way the law is worded, then prostitutes are criminals that are just not prosecuted. And that therefore they do not have the right of safety in their activity as found in Bedford. I do not agree with this position, because as I said they are always innocent. The law describes a crime, and then says effectively that those who sell their own sex are not guilty of this crime.
MacKay himself said that prostitutes would be breaking the law, but that they are immune from prosecution. The law doesn't say that they are innocent; indeed, everybody is always innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. A person is a criminal only when convicted, not arrested. Police always arrest innocent people because arrested people are always innocent until proven guilty. But they can be arrested, processed and locked up in the meantime until the Crown Prosecutor decides to invoke their immunity from prosecution. While being under arrest, they can be entered into the Canadian Police Information Centre and that information can be used to harass them in the future, across the country, including crossing the US border because the CPIC is shared with US authorities, including Homeland Security.

Normally these ''we will not prosecute you'' are decided by the provinces on a case by case basis. In that context the activity is a crime at the federal level and police can make arrests. In bill C-36 the criminal code says out of hand that these people are not guilty, therefore their own actions are legal.
Young said exactly that: that only Provinces could grant immunity, and it is on a case-by-case basis. That's one reason he says that the law is unconstitutional. Something about encroaching on Provincial jurisdiction. In any case, he says that this has never happened before, where a law arbitrarily exempts a certain class of people from its application: hence, discrimination and a Charter challenge. The bill doesn't say that they will are not guilty; it says that they will never be prosecuted, so that it will never be known whether they were guilty, or remain innocent. Your statement that their actions are legal is merely a conclusion to an argument that invalidates the law. That argument has to be made in court in order to invalidate that law. The law is subject to wide interpretation, therefore unsafe.

"286.2 (1) Everyone who receives a financial or other material benefit, knowing that it is obtained by or derived directly or indirectly from the commission of an offence under subsection 286.1(1), is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term of not more than 10 years."

There is no disctinction here between clients and prostitutes.

"286.5 (1) No person shall be prosecuted for
(a) an offence under section 286.2 if the benefit is derived from the provision of their own sexual services; or"

A prosecution is undertaken by the Crown Prosecutor, not the police.

There is noting in precedence or statute that prevents people from being arrested because they are exempt from prosecution. That's because this situation has never happened before. If you have such information, I would be interested to see it.

It would be logical for police not to charge someone because they will never be prosecuted. But some police forces are not known for their logic when it has to do with loopholes. That loophole in the law would allow less scrupulous police departments to undertake an abuse of process. Police exploit loopholes all the time, and that's why we have courts to limit their actions. This is potentially such a situation where the courts will have to make explicitly clear the application of what is the intent.
 

Siocnarf

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The police can arrest and charge prostitutes under this bill. They can do so because section 286(1) makes no distinction between client and provider.
...
But it is not up to police to find someine guilty, its for the courts. ...MacKay himself said that prostitutes would be breaking the law, but that they are immune from prosecution.
...
I'm not sure I understand your argument. You are right, it is not up to the police to decide guilt. However they are the one placing charges in the first instance and can only do so if the law allows them to charge someone. In a second instance the crown decide if they follow on that charge. LE cannot lay any charge for the sale of sex under this law. Police cannot make arrest for things that cannot be prosecuted.

It is effectively impossible to even envision that a seller could ever be guilty of this crime. The law clearly states that they are innocent regardless of circumstances. Like bobcat mentioned above, this is just intentional confusion on the part of MacKay. In effect selling is a perfectly lawful activity, and the Canadian Bar Association said so last week.

Prostitutes are not breaking the law. They are involved in an activity that the law considers criminal. This is a huge difference. The closest thing to this kind of law as pointed out by Maggie McNeil is statutory rape. A young underage person who has sex with an adult is involved in a crime, but is not liable even if they fully consent and are themselves responsible for instigating the act.

Prostitutes also cannot be liable for ''aiding, abetting, conspiring or attempting to commit an offence under any of sections 286.1 to 286.4 or being an accessory after the fact or counselling a person to be a party to such an offence...''. There is really no way to place any blame on the seller.
 

MPAsquared

www.musemassagespa.com
The government is just trying to play with words to make the law seem more constitutional. Even if they are persons committing an unlawful act but given immunity - they are de facto committing a legal act. There is just no way around that because letting the government get away with this just allows them to draft laws that strip people of their charter rights.

As for purely just legislating morality - the supreme court has already ruled that parliament doesn't have absolutely power in this area. They must be able to demonstrate some kind of concrete harm. This makes sense as if they were given absolutely power to legislate, they could make everyone hail Steven Harper like Kim Jong on North Korea under the guise of "morality" and "Social Order".
And that's why Harper is trying to change how Supreme Courts Judges get in. So he can line the SCC with his minions.
 

wilbur

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I'm not sure I understand your argument. You are right, it is not up to the police to decide guilt. However they are the one placing charges in the first instance and can only do so if the law allows them to charge someone. In a second instance the crown decide if they follow on that charge. LE cannot lay any charge for the sale of sex under this law. Police cannot make arrest for things that cannot be prosecuted.

It is effectively impossible to even envision that a seller could ever be guilty of this crime. The law clearly states that they are innocent regardless of circumstances. Like bobcat mentioned above, this is just intentional confusion on the part of MacKay. In effect selling is a perfectly lawful activity, and the Canadian Bar Association said so last week.

Prostitutes are not breaking the law. They are involved in an activity that the law considers criminal. This is a huge difference. The closest thing to this kind of law as pointed out by Maggie McNeil is statutory rape. A young underage person who has sex with an adult is involved in a crime, but is not liable even if they fully consent and are themselves responsible for instigating the act.

Prostitutes also cannot be liable for ''aiding, abetting, conspiring or attempting to commit an offence under any of sections 286.1 to 286.4 or being an accessory after the fact or counselling a person to be a party to such an offence...''. There is really no way to place any blame on the seller.
Yes, prostitutes would be in contravention of the law, and MacKay has stated this. What he did say also is that, given that they will be in contravention of the law, they will not face prosecution. Prostitution is being criminalized for everybody, not just for buyers.

You don't seem to be differentiating between arresting, laying charges, prosecuting and convicting.

It is not for police to decide guilt, that is for the courts.

It is not for police to prosecute: that is a decision left to the Crown prosecutor, AFTER police have arrested and layed charges.

The issue at hand is not whether a person is guilty or not, because it is clear that prostitutes will never be found guilty under section 286.2 (1) because they will never be prosecuted (taken to court). That's because the prosecutor will be unable to bring the charges, if any, to court. However, nothing stops the police from doing what they normally do: enforcing the law by way of an arrest, namely section 286.2(1). Nothing says that prostitutes are immune from arrest for breaking section 286.2. So if it was the intention of leaving prostitutes alone, why not specify in Section 286.2(1) that prostitutes are immune from arrest, instead of stating under section 286.5(1) that they are immune from prosecution? There's a difference between arrest and prosecution.

Being innocent under the law does not prevent police from denying you certain of your rights while you are handcuffed, brought to the station against your will, identified, strip searched, interrogated and locked up until the next day.

This leaves the possibility of a loophole for police to harass prostitutes. And believe me, who ever heard of police not exploiting loopholes? Arguments about loopholes are made all the time in court.

That's why MacKay has to be asked explicitely whether the intent of the law is to prevent prostitutes from being arrested, or whether the intent of the law is just to prevent them from being prosecuted (taken in front of a court of law). Just because reasonable persons think that it is logical not to arrest people because they can't be prosecuted, doesn't mean that certain police forces will not try to do exactly that: for the purpose of forcibly collect evidence in order to convict clients, or the prostitutes themselves in case of drug possession, or to place them into the CPIC database so that prostitutes can be targeted for surveillance and harassment.

If the intent is clear, why not make it clear in the law itself?
 

Siocnarf

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You don't seem to be differentiating between arresting, laying charges, prosecuting and convicting.

It is not for police to decide guilt, that is for the courts.

It is not for police to prosecute: that is a decision left to the Crown prosecutor, AFTER police have arrested and layed charges.
I think I understand the difference between these different things. In a chronological order, first you are arrested by the police, then charged, then prosecuted and possibly found guilty. But the power of the law flows in the reverse order. If you cannot be prosecuted, you cannot be charged and you cannot be arrested. There can be no charge, no prosecution and the seller is never guilty by definition in the text of the law.

It's not exactly what he said when he was in front of the HoC Justice Committee, this summer:
...
And when he presented at the Second Reading, this is what he said on the illegality of prostitution:
Senator Baker also pointed that contradiction, but seemed to say the statements in front of the Senate usually take precedence over those before the HoC when looking back. It's clear MacKay wants to leave it as confusing as possible and not state whether it's legal or not. However, the word of the law says prostitutes can never be criminals for the act of selling. Therefore selling is legal. The fact that they are allowed to hire help and make their own advertisement lends further support to that.
 

wilbur

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If you cannot be prosecuted, you cannot be charged and you cannot be arrested.
That makes sense to you and me. But where does it actually say that? In the Canadian Constitution? What article? Is there case law on this, or is it just your opinion?

There can be no charge, no prosecution and the seller is never guilty by definition in the text of the law.
Again, where exactly does it say that, other than it being evident to the average person? What I'm saying is that, because such a situation (offering an arbitrary immunity of prosecution within the law itself) has never existed in Canada, there is nothing that will prevent it from being exploited until it is presented before the courts.

MacKay is making the wording as confusing as possible, but it doesn't change the fact that there is no possibility of a seller being a criminal for that action.
Again, everybody agrees on this. A prostitute will not be a criminal for that action. That is not the point. The point is: will a loophole in the law allow police to arrest prostitutes who have zero chance of being convicted of the offense they were charged with. And if not, what statute, case law or act of the Canadian Constitution explicitly says that?

Senator Baker also pointed that contradiction, but seemed to say the statements in front of the Senate usually take precedence over those before the HoC when looking back.
A single Senator will not define the intent of the law. There has to be a consensus in the amongst Senators, and the Consevatives have the majority.

Loophole: "...an ambiguity or omission in the text through which the intent of a statute, contract, or obligation may be evaded "

If my suspicions are correct, some police forces are going to try to exploit this loophole, and the issue is going to wind up in court, under the argument that it is unconstitutional. Is the principle of 'no arrest if no prosecution' so clear and founded in law that it will never happen? If it is clear, under what provisions will it never happen?
 

DigitallyYours

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I don't think the court will issue an arrest warrant to those with diplomatic immunity. That's the closest analogy I can think of.
 

wilbur

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Quite true. Here's what MacKay had to say, about the illegality, during the Senate pre-study:



But when pressed by Senator Baker on the subject, MacKay didn't answer.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/SEN/C...557-e.htm?Language=E&Parl=41&Ses=2&comm_id=11[/QUOTE]

Mr. Piragoff: That's where we beg to differ, senator. It is an illegal act, but for the provision which grants immunity. Even if the law only directly penalized the purchase of sex, the seller could be a party to that purchase, but for the fact that Bill C-36 explicitly says you cannot be prosecuted for that.

Mr. Piragoff: It's not a legal service that is being offered. It is a service which the bill says we will not prosecute you for. There is a difference.
 

DigitallyYours

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Piragoff's interpretation isn't the court's either. The court may say that 286.2/286.4 must be read together with 286.5.

Anyhoo... the immunity provisions are flat out unconstitutional as they violate s. 92 of the BNA Act. That's a challenge that can be launched on day one. Getting this struck would of course mean that prostitution would be outright illegal. Why would we want this? Well, nobody thinks prostitutes should be thrown in jail. So, it would force the government to amend the code so that the provisions would say 'you cannot materially benefit, unless you are selling your own services.' and 'you cannot advertise, unless you are advertising your own services.' Then, you can attack the law for violating s. 7 properly.

What's interesting is that Ontario could actually enact a law that says 286.1 will only be prosecuted in cases of exploitation. I doubt they would, but I believe they constitutionally could.
 

Siocnarf

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Again, everybody agrees on this. A prostitute will not be a criminal for that action. That is not the point. The point is: will a loophole in the law allow police to arrest prostitutes who have zero chance of being convicted of the offense they were charged with. And if not, what statute, case law or act of the Canadian Constitution explicitly says that?
I think they could put her in investigative detention. For an actual arrest:
A police officer can arrest where:
1. there is reasonable grounds a person has committed an indictable offence;
2. there is reasonable grounds a person is about to commit an indictable offence;
3. a person is committing an indictable offence; or
4. a person has a warrant out for his/her arrest.
I don’t think we can say the prostitutes commits a criminal offence, because she cannot be prosecuted under the criminal code. This could be debatable. I'm not an expert so I could be wrong on this. However, an arrest is a serious loss of freedom and police could get in a lot of trouble if they just did that for no valid reason. In reality the Crown and LE work together to decide how the laws are applied. Plus, it is clear from what the government says that one goal of the law is to not arrest the women. So it would be very surprising if police were using dubious loopholes to arrest them.
 

Siocnarf

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Mr. Piragoff: That's where we beg to differ, senator. It is an illegal act, but for the provision which grants immunity. Even if the law only directly penalized the purchase of sex, the seller could be a party to that purchase, but for the fact that Bill C-36 explicitly says you cannot be prosecuted for that.
The way I interpret that sentence it is not illegal. When you say ''but for'' it means the first part is invalided by the second part of the sentence. As in the expression: ''This SP is perfect but for her poor attitude.'' It means she was not perfect.
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/but+for

Once arrested, they would be offered participation to various exit strategies - maybe even "diversion camps", such as the ones the Justice Minister from Manitoba alluded to earlier this week.
OK, but what would be the justification for arresting them? That would be extremely bad PR for police to arrest people just to offer them the opportunity of some exit strategy. And if you cannot prosecute them, how can you induce them in accepting that generous offer? If they want to offer them strategies they can just go and talk to them. They can justify making some of their ''courtesy visits'' but actually arresting them would be very draconian and unacceptable.
 
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