US Intelligence: No Evidence Russia Did It

[Big Sleazy]

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/23/us-intelligence-evidence-russia-paul-craig-roberts/


Why anybody would believe anything that comes out of our media is beyond me. We're really looking pretty incompetent and dangerous to the rest of the World. If we don't recognize this and start to change our ways the World is going to leave us behind. Just take a look at the recent announcement by the BRICS on the development Bank. The World is sick and tired of us. Lies, lies, and more lies....

BS

 

[Aardvark154]

US Intelligence: No Evidence Russia Did It

This has already been discussed at some length in the Malaysian Airlines flight 17 thread.

There is a large difference between being responsible and supporting the parties likely responsible. Further as pointed out in that thread partisans are often a great deal of trouble. Other parties view them as being 'yours,' but it is often the case that when told to do something by their sponsor they don't, and when told not to do something they do.

 

[mnztr]

Apparently all the data release by the Ukrainians is time stamped the day before, and heavily edited. Also they have sized and refused to release the ATC tapes. I still doubt they Ukes shot it down, but I suspect the directed the plane there and shadowed it with another plane to encourage a shoot down. They have that missile as well so they know EXACTLY how it works.

 

[BlueLaser]

Apparently all the data release by the Ukrainians is time stamped the day before, and heavily edited. Also they have sized and refused to release the ATC tapes. I still doubt they Ukes shot it down, but I suspect the directed the plane there and shadowed it with another plane to encourage a shoot down. They have that missile as well so they know EXACTLY how it works.

In many places, ATC-pilot communications are protected information. Just because information isn't released, that doesn't mean there's a conspiracy.

 

[fuji]

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/23/us-intelligence-evidence-russia-paul-craig-roberts/


Why anybody would believe anything that comes out of our media is beyond me. We're really looking pretty incompetent and dangerous to the rest of the World. If we don't recognize this and start to change our ways the World is going to leave us behind. Just take a look at the recent announcement by the BRICS on the development Bank. The World is sick and tired of us. Lies, lies, and more lies....

BS

Speaking of lies, your source... not so honest!

What US intelligence said was no evidence that Russia was DIRECTLY involved. They did think Russia was indirectly involved. Your source is badly misrepresenting the statement by leaving out the word "directly" from the original statement.

 

[nobody123]

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/23/us-intelligence-evidence-russia-paul-craig-roberts/


Why anybody would believe anything that comes out of our media is beyond me.

But it's not coming out of our media. It's a straw man argument that no one (with a lick of sanity) supports. Oh, the "position" is trotted out and debunked by idiots often enough, and for that maybe we should point some fingers at the media. Stop giving idiots air time and column inches. And fuck you for giving equal time to climate denier quacks, while we're at it.

But no credible person has ever put "the Russians did it" forth as an argument. (as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, "the Russians supplied/trained/ etc the rebels who did it" is a different order of argument entirely, and a rather persuasive one)

 

[BlueLaser]

But it's not coming out of our media. It's a straw man argument that no one (with a lick of sanity) supports. Oh, the "position" is trotted out and debunked by idiots often enough, and for that maybe we should point some fingers at the media. Stop giving idiots air time and column inches. And fuck you for giving equal time to climate denier quacks, while we're at it.

But no credible person has ever put "the Russians did it" forth as an argument. (as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, "the Russians supplied/trained/ etc the rebels who did it" is a different order of argument entirely, and a rather persuasive one)

I'd disagree with you except that you said "credible". There are plenty of kooks, even on this forum, that seem to place the blame 100% on Russia for this.

 

[afterhours]

I'd disagree with you except that you said "credible". There are plenty of kooks, even on this forum, that seem to place the blame 100% on Russia for this.

Russia supplied rebels with SAM and rebels immediately shoot it at a civilian plane thinking it's a Ukrainian military plane. How many percent of responsibility lies at Russia's feet?

 

[nobody123]

Russia supplied rebels with SAM and rebels immediately shoot it at a civilian plane thinking it's a Ukrainian military plane. How many percent of responsibility lies at Russia's feet?

Plenty. And a discussion of exactly how much is something the world needs to have. But that doesn't mean that they've broken the U.S.'s stellar record of being the only major global military power to have directly shot down a civilian airliner in the past 50-odd years.

 

[mnztr]

Russia supplied rebels with SAM and rebels immediately shoot it at a civilian plane thinking it's a Ukrainian military plane. How many percent of responsibility lies at Russia's feet?

How do you know they supplied them with a SAM system? Apparently the may have captured it from a Ukrainian military base they overran. When then begs the question. If the Ukrainians knew they had lost control of such a dangerous weapons system, why did they not close their airspace?

 

[mnztr]

plenty. And a discussion of exactly how much is something the world needs to have. But that doesn't mean that they've broken the u.s.'s stellar record of being the only major global military power to have directly shot down a civilian airliner in the past 50-odd years.

usa usa usa.

 

[afterhours]

How do you know they supplied them with a SAM system? Apparently the may have captured it from a Ukrainian military base they overran. When then begs the question. If the Ukrainians knew they had lost control of such a dangerous weapons system, why did they not close their airspace?

there is an intercept of rebels talking about getting the system with the crew, presumably from Russia. If you think rebels could operate it without the trained crew, please tell me how would you go about shooting a plane at 10km traveling with the speed of 900km/hr using this:

I don't think these people http://cdn.rt.com/files/news/2a/8f/c0/00/000_par7933424.si.jpg can shoot anything other than AK-47.

 

[DanJ]

Plenty. And a discussion of exactly how much is something the world needs to have. But that doesn't mean that they've broken the U.S.'s stellar record of being the only major global military power to have directly shot down a civilian airliner in the past 50-odd years.

The US shot down KAL007?

 

[afterhours]

The US shot down KAL007?

the amount of anti-US rhetoric here is quite astonishing, considering that all these people would never live anywhere except western democracy (and many of them probably would not survive anywhere else).

 

[benstt]

The US shot down KAL007?

Exactly. Not particularly armed with facts around here.

 

[nobody123]

The US shot down KAL007?

Exactly. Not particularly armed with facts around here.

Crap. Ya got me. I'd forgotten about that one. D'oh!

..still, IR655 was carrying 290 civilians while KAL007 was only carrying 269, so U! S! A!.... U! S! A!... U! S! A!... Wooooyeah!

 

[fuji]

How do you know they supplied them with a SAM system? Apparently the may have captured it from a Ukrainian military base they overran. When then begs the question. If the Ukrainians knew they had lost control of such a dangerous weapons system, why did they not close their airspace?

The fact that they didn't close their airspace would seem to be evidence against your theory. As would the video of the Russians spiriting the BUK back across the border. As would the cleanup team the Russians sent to the site to cover up the evidence.

I don't believe the Russians expected a civilian jet to be shot down, but I think they were reckless in giving the system to the rebels without proper training or full targeting radar. I think they do reckless things like that all the time in the Putinocracy of Russian Kleprocratic Republics.

 

[The Options Menu]

As would the video of the Russians spiriting the BUK back across the border. As would the cleanup team the Russians sent to the site to cover up the evidence.

Those claims aren't exactly uncontested, and don't exactly come from the most reliable sources.

 

[stay]

What an argument, how many people died at the (direct or indirect) hands of Russia or USA, all in the name of BS. At least BS they feed to the world. Israel, yesterday said they had to kill the children because the enemy is hiding there. Does the US supply Israel?
THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR KILLING ANY NON COMBANTANT PERIOD.
In Ukraine a person is serving time in jail for an indictable offence. The government says we will release you if you join the army.
Two groups of incoptetant idiots fighting. Hope it for the GOOD of the people.

 

[stay]

the amount of anti-US rhetoric here is quite astonishing, considering that all these people would never live anywhere except western democracy (and many of them probably would not survive anywhere else).

All is a strong word.
For me I kinda like it here, my wife too. But when her friend from school back in Ukraine say that they want our life she tells them.
People here don't all live the life on TV. Some people work 2 jobs, little time for family. Do you know if you don't pay your rent they throw you out on the street.
Nobody comes to cut off your electricity, gas and everyone has shelter there.