Shooting at Wisconsin Sikh temple - hostages inside

[fuji]

OK, where is your evidence that a significant percentage of whites, or anybody else, are happy that these people were murdered?

It's outrageous that you think you can make these baseness accusations, and then believe that you have defended this twaddle by saying no one has proved it isn't true. Outrageous! You need positive evidence for such a bizarre accusation.

The elected representatives of the people, who presumably do speak for the average person, have expressed outrage, and their agents take it seriously. No wink or nudge, it had made people angry and upset. That is powerful evidence that the overwhelming consensus is that this is a despicable act.

On the other side you and carling have offered what proof of this bizarre and unlikely claim that bigoted "stormfront" type views are held by more than a tiny minority of extremists?

I call bullshit and say that carling is lying, that he is racist, and that he has no reason other than hate for his view.

 

[frankcastle]

The success of European culture in rising to global dominance is at least in part the result of a fundamental, and really quite brave and new, belief that the other guy should share in the gains too.

Really?!?? I thought hte economic success was due largely in finding cheap labour.

France and Britain were built on the backs of other colonies.

Don't think Ghandi was protesting the great job the UK was doing in sharing.

More recently the riots in France had some roots in feelings of inequality.

G20/Occupy Wall St are built on a foundation of having a problem with inequality.

If the government has to make laws for equality it suggests to me that equality has not yet made it to the culture as you have suggested. Unless you consider the law and culture to be one and the same. I believe that they are related but not the same.

But then again you said sharing which doesn't necessarily mean equal sharing.

 

[frankcastle]

white american terrorists are a major problem.they are armed to the teeth and have no regards for their own lives.only problem is white people continue to ignore the problem and blame it on blacks and immigrants.

Fuji this is what I was agreeing with. Not saying whites are happy with what happened. Just saying that whites don't see this as a major problem (even if the FBI acknowledges the problem).

You assume that the avg white is informed on FBI statements and agrees with them.

Suggesting that millions of whites all think the same thing is stupid. Just look at this thread here..... a handful of people and we can't agree. What makes you think that on a topic like race that you will find uniform though in a group as large as white americans who have vastly different incomes, educations and lives?

 

[frankcastle]

The elected representatives of the people, who presumably do speak for the average person, have expressed outrage, and their agents take it seriously. No wink or nudge, it had made people angry and upset. That is powerful evidence that the overwhelming consensus is that this is a despicable act.

There are enough Rob Ford haters here to suggest that the government while elected doesn't reflect the public and don't forget FBI positions are not based on elections.

 

[fuji]

Really?!?? I thought hte economic success was due largely in finding cheap labour.

Correction, they invented the concept of labour. Then they set about finding cheap labour. You forget that the industrial revolution, which originated in Europe, developed the concept of labour specialization and replaced the cottage industries that had previously been prevalent. The notion of labour may have been toyed with here and there, but it was the Europeans who explicitly, formally grasped the power of an organized, specialized labour force. This is part of the "winning formula" that gave them the edge.

France and Britain were built on the backs of other colonies.

Not so, you've got the cart before the horse. The reason why the Europeans were ever even able to acquire colonies and conquer other nations was because they had developed a superior economic model, superior governance and organizational structures, and translated those things into a superior military. At some really high level, military success is really just a product of production and technology, and Europeans had a crushing advantage in both.

Don't think Ghandi was protesting the great job the UK was doing in sharing.

In point of fact Gandhi succeed by appealing to the core values of which I'm speaking. Had he tried his non-violent approach with another culture, he would have failed. The non-violent approach worked precisely because it played to deeply held British beliefs about human rights, equality, and justice. It was indeed a transformational moment, not just for India, but for Britain too. I am speaking of an evolution out of savagery, and ALL cultures began with savage ideas about how to treat others. The evolution of the British/Western/European core value of including everyone and sharing the gains was emerging at the time that Gandhi acted.

The lessons that were learned by everyone--the moral truths that were grasped by both the British, and by Gandhi--went on to colour British policy in much more overt, forceful ways following those events, not only in India, but globally.

G20/Occupy Wall St are built on a foundation of having a problem with inequality.

You're mixing up inequality with racism. I have made no claim that Western societies aim to be communist. On the contrary, hard core capitalism was part of the winning formula that gave Europe its edge over everybody else, which helped kick off the industrial revolution, and translate the economic gains into military superiority. I don't think anyone claims the inequalities identified by OWS are racial or religious in nature!

 

[frankcastle]

Sadly if you look far back in history, some of the people who began to grasp the idea that you win biggest when the other guy also wins were non-white. Cyris the Great of Persia/Iran was a great example way way way back in 600 BC. He would conquer his enemies, then promote their culture and send his people in to help them rebuild. Just as it did for the British, it worked out pretty well for him, and he built a pretty big empire, pretty quickly, as his enemies realized that losing to him was actually one of the best things that ever happened to them. Unfortunately his descendants lost the thread and we went back to another couple thousand years of unenlightened winner-take-all savagery.

The greatest legacy the West gave the world was developing a winning technological/economic/military formula, and then instead of just using it to crush everyone else (which at first they did) threw open the doors and invited everyone else to join in. It's a powerful idea, that is far too easily lost.

I wouldn't call CIA activities exactly an open door policy. The americans have funded their fair share of wars/conflicts.

 

[fuji]

I wouldn't call CIA activities exactly an open door policy. The americans have funded their fair share of wars/conflicts.

And this new and different topic is relevant how?

 

[frankcastle]

The idea of racial and religious equality is a relatively new idea that seems to have been embraced first and most pervasively by white cultural groups, starting with France, Britain, and the various colonies. There were certainly thinkers here and there elsewhere who discussed the concept, but white Europeans were the first to put it into practice as a core value and social organizational principle.

It has not yet permeated most other cultural groups and as this racist shooting shows is obviously not yet accepted by a few whites as well. Many minorities talk about it for selfish purposes, to the extent that they benefit, but do not practice the idea themselves.

It's a learning curve that human civilization is on as we collectively throw off the limiting binds of savagery which relatively recently every culture suffered from.

The success of European culture in rising to global dominance is at least in part the result of a fundamental, and really quite brave and new, belief that the other guy should share in the gains too.

Thank you for this post btw it really highlights where your mindset is coming from.

The pedastal you put Euro culture on is telling and as such I really don't see how we can communicate.

 

[frankcastle]

And this new and different topic is relevant how?

Relevant because you claim that they have a open door policy. When in fact the door is open so long as you are invited.

 

[frankcastle]

The idea of racial and religious equality is a relatively new idea that seems to have been embraced first and most pervasively by white cultural groups, starting with France, Britain, and the various colonies. There were certainly thinkers here and there elsewhere who discussed the concept, but white Europeans were the first to put it into practice as a core value and social organizational principle.

It has not yet permeated most other cultural groups and as this racist shooting shows is obviously not yet accepted by a few whites as well. Many minorities talk about it for selfish purposes, to the extent that they benefit, but do not practice the idea themselves.

It's a learning curve that human civilization is on as we collectively throw off the limiting binds of savagery which relatively recently every culture suffered from.

The success of European culture in rising to global dominance is at least in part the result of a fundamental, and really quite brave and new, belief that the other guy should share in the gains too.

That's the point I was arguing against. If you think a big part of western culture is based on sharing I beg to differ.

 

[fuji]

That's the point I was arguing against. If you think a big part of western culture is based on sharing I beg to differ.

And yet when I look around at what has been built by the West, I see an open and inclusive society that welcomes people of all races, cultures, and religions. I see that nowhere else in the world. What we have here in Canada now is a system that is set up along egalitarian lines, making everybody equal, giving everyone an opportunity. We accept immigrants without regard to race/religion, just based on their objective ability to contribute in various ways to our society. We really have a pretty open system.

I don't find that sort of egalitarian spirit in countries and nations founded by non-Europeans. I think it's very much a tradition that originated out of France and Britain, primarily, and spread from there to the rest of Europe, and is now spreading about other places in the world. But it really had its origin in European culture. Certainly, it developed incrementally. At first, it was a willingness to accept other white people of different religions, and then different nationalities, and then gradually the egalitarian principle extended to encompass more and more people.

But that founding idea, that core cultural value, is a core British value, a core French value.

 

[frankcastle]

And yet when I look around at what has been built by the West, I see an open and inclusive society that welcomes people of all races, cultures, and religions. I see that nowhere else in the world. What we have here in Canada now is a system that is set up along egalitarian lines, making everybody equal, giving everyone an opportunity. We accept immigrants without regard to race/religion, just based on their objective ability to contribute in various ways to our society. We really have a pretty open system.

I don't find that sort of egalitarian spirit in countries and nations founded by non-Europeans. I think it's very much a tradition that originated out of France and Britain, primarily, and spread from there to the rest of Europe, and is now spreading about other places in the world. But it really had its origin in European culture. Certainly, it developed incrementally. At first, it was a willingness to accept other white people of different religions, and then different nationalities, and then gradually the egalitarian principle extended to encompass more and more people.

But that founding idea, that core cultural value, is a core British value, a core French value.

It was only 50 to 60 years ago sitting on the back of the bus for blacks in the USA was the norm.

I agree that if I had to pick countries to live in the top choices would be white first world countries but my point is that the enthusiasm you are professing your admiration for white culture is off putting. You sound like a brochure.

European culture also has heavy Christian influences and until recently has not been the most accepting. As far as accepting religions/philosophies go the asians win that one (Buddhism and Taoism)

I know you like to paint with broad strokes jusst wish you would use more colours (no pun intended). For the most part Canada is a great place to live, there aren't many countries that I would consider trading up. But it's by no means utopia and the cutlures that it is built on has it's flaws and dark sides.

 

[Rockslinger]

And yet when I look around at what has been built by the West, I see an open and inclusive society that welcomes people of all races, cultures, and religions. I see that nowhere else in the world.

While we are not perfect we are a shining example to the rest of the world in diversity, tolerance and respect for human rights. For example, I am inspired by the Carol Huynh story. Vietnam "boat people" adopted by a White northern B.C. community (Hazelton) who were facing huge economic problems of their own.

 

[Rockslinger]

But it's by no means utopia and the cutlures that it is built on has it's flaws and dark sides.

Yes, we are not perfect. For example, a Black man was videotaped pissing on a homeless man at the Eaton Centre. But, I will suggest that we are less imperfect than 99.9% of the other countries on this planet.

 

[fuji]

It was only 50 to 60 years ago sitting on the back of the bus for blacks in the USA was the norm.

Yes that's right, the shaking off of savagery took a very long time, and still there are elements of it around today. This recent shooter is an example of the reality that there are still some white people who aren't bought into the concept. Yet it's undeniable that European society has been trending towards increasingly egalitarian outlook, and that the rights that were eventually extended were originally promised in the founding documents, in the Declaration of Independence for example.

There is no disputing that we all originated in savagery, that all cultures, all peoples, originally practiced discrimination and unenlightened self-interest. You seem to think pointing out any inequality or savagery inflicted by Europeans undermines my point. It doesn't.

My point is this enlightenment originated in Europe, with white thinkers, and eventually permeated white societies, and has been propagating out from there. Still to this day most primarily non-white nations institutionalize racism, and don't even question it. The Chinese, in China, if you ask them, don't even comprehend the point. It's primarily Chinese who have had exposure to Western culture who have acquired the concept that everyone should be equal, without regard to race or national origin.

Still to this day it's my observation, and I think many people's, that non-whites in Canada are far more racist and discriminatory towards one another than whites are. Asians say horrible things about blacks, and vice versa.

The idea of equality has a long way to go, but I see little value in denying from where it originated.

 

[Rockslinger]

Asians say horrible things about blacks, and vice versa.

Korean shopkeepers think all Blacks are shoplifters. Blacks think all Korean shopkeepers are ripping them off.

 

[fuji]

As far as accepting religions/philosophies go the asians win that one (Buddhism and Taoism)

This is complete nonsense. Societies based on these religions/philosophies are the least likely to be egalitarian. I wouldn't go so far as blaming these religions, that would be silly. But certainly the Chinese take on them is not one of openness and tolerance towards others, but more along the lines of, everyone should accept their place in life, and the Chinese place is above/superior to everybody else. The Buddhist version of racism is that if you're a good black person, you might be reborn as a white guy, and a good white guy might have a shot at being reborn Chinese. China didn't even BEGIN to contemplate ideas of equality and egalitarian principles until it adopted a Western European philosophy...

China is one of the most racist/bigoted societies on the planet, only slightly worse than Japan in that regard.

 

[asterwald]

While we are not perfect we are a shining example to the rest of the world in diversity, tolerance and respect for human rights. For example, I am inspired by the Carol Huynh story. Vietnam "boat people" adopted by a White northern B.C. community (Hazelton) who were facing huge economic problems of their own.

Well to be fair, diversity has its own downsides. There is a reason Japanese people and Koreans dont want black people or muslims, etc. They observe what is happening in the US and Europe in terms of racial, religious tensions.

 

[Rockslinger]

Well to be fair, diversity has its own downsides. There is a reason Japanese people and Korean's dont want black people or muslims, etc. They observe what is happening in the US and Europe in terms of racial, religious tensions.

I hear you. I grew up in smalltown Ontario and there was virtually no diversity and none of the tensions that might be associated therewith.
Speaking of the Japanese, they might be simply an interesting footnote in human history 100 years from now. They are rapidly aging and depopulating.

 

[Marblehead]

Well to be fair, diversity has its own downsides. There is a reason Japanese people and Korean's dont want black people or muslims, etc. They observe what is happening in the US and Europe in terms of racial, religious tensions.

+1, agree!