Steeles Royal

Harper social conservative agenda rears its head - moves against same sex marriage

fuji

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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...eaky-reversal-on-gay-marriage/article2300179/

It really is unbelievable that a government lawyer would take a position like this without first clearing it with the higher ups. It would have at least been brought to the Minister. If not, why is the lawyer who filed the brief still working for the Federal government?

The claim by Harper that they are not re-opening the debate drips with slime: Apparently he wants to move against these marriages WITHOUT debate.

The Harper government is being accused of taking away same-sex rights by “stealth” in light of a surprise government decision stating non-resident gay and lesbian couples who flocked to Canada to exchange vows really aren’t legally married after all.

“The narrow interpretation of the law shows that the Harper government is trying to take away same-sex rights by stealth, and Canadians need to know that the advances we thought were secure are now under threat from the Harper neo-conservatives,” Interim Liberal Leader Bob Rae told the Star Thursday.

According to news reports, thousands of same-sex marriages since 2004 involving couples from outside Canada are in limbo as result of a new position taken by the Conservative government. In a nutshell, government lawyers are arguing in court that if same-sex couples could not be legally married in their home country, then their Canadian wedding is not valid.

The revelation came when a lesbian couple — one from Florida and the other from the United Kingdom — married in 2005 filed for divorce in Toronto but was told by a Department of Justice lawyer that their marriage was not legal in Canada.

Meanwhile, Prime Minister Stephen Harper vowed Thursday to find out why the sudden change but assured reporters that it is not a sign that his government is reopening the same-sex marriage debate.

“I will admit to you that I am unaware of the details,” Harper said following a news conference in Halifax. “This is I gather a case before the courts where Canadian lawyers have taken a particular position based on the law … I will be asking officials to provide me more details on this particular case.”

“As I have said before we have no intention of opening or reopening this issue,” he said.

The New Democrats first got wind in the fall of what the government was up to and raised it in the House of Commons during question period on Oct. 6.

“Unfortunately, the Conservatives are now trying to erode this right by intervening in an Ontario case to oppose recognition of a same-sex civil partnership … the Conservative government is opposing the guarantee of full protection of the law to this couple under the Divorce Act,” said MPP Randall Garrison (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca).

Garrison went on to ask Justice Minister Rob Nicholson why his department was “intervening in this case to deny equal protection of the law for all same-sex couples?”

Nicholson said Garrison was off base but hinted something was up.

“We have been very clear that we are not reopening the issue, but it is a legal dispute over definitions,” the minister said.

“We respect the rights of all individuals and we have been very clear about that. We have done nothing to reopen that debate. We respect the decision by Parliament, but it is a question of definitions, and that is being argued before the courts. We are intervenors, as are a number of other individuals and organizations, and I look forward to the court’s decision,” Nicholson told MPs at the time.

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rld

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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...eaky-reversal-on-gay-marriage/article2300179/

It really is unbelievable that a government lawyer would take a position like this without first clearing it with the higher ups. It would have at least been brought to the Minister. If not, why is the lawyer who filed the brief still working for the Federal government?

The claim by Harper that they are not re-opening the debate drips with slime: Apparently he wants to move against these marriages WITHOUT debate.
Nice job on the misleading title.
 

toguy5252

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How so? It would seem to me that the Conservatives are indeed moving against same sex marriage, trying to limit who it can apply to.
You have been reading the headlines of the clown brothers for too long. It is effecting your own headline writing skills.
 

fuji

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Sorry, can you be clear, what is inaccurate about my headline?

Do you believe this was really done without Minister level approval? Do you think it's unfair to call restrictions on same sex marriage a move against it?

I did not write that he was repealing same sex marriage, I wrote that he is moving against it, and he is. He is working in co-operation with other Conservative jurisdictions to limit who can get a same sex marriage.
 

Aardvark154

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It is quite standard even for opposite sex marriages to have different standards of interpretation (if not actual different provisions of law) regarding residents and non-residents.
 

toguy5252

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Sorry, can you be clear, what is inaccurate about my headline?

Do you believe this was really done without Minister level approval? Do you think it's unfair to call restrictions on same sex marriage a move against it?

I did not write that he was repealing same sex marriage, I wrote that he is moving against it, and he is. He is working in co-operation with other Conservative jurisdictions to limit who can get a same sex marriage.
The headline clearly suggests that Harper is somehow behind this and that he is moving against same sex marriage whereas he stated:

"Meanwhile, Prime Minister Stephen Harper vowed Thursday to find out why the sudden change but assured reporters that it is not a sign that his government is reopening the same-sex marriage debate."

"'As I have said before we have no intention of opening or reopening this issue,' he said."

What in the world could be more misleading. Come on you are a lot smarter than that. Why not just say oops and get on with it.
 

wigglee

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Oct 13, 2010
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So where does this leave Elton John and the other 5000 same sex foreigners who have gotten married in Canada in the last 10 years? Null and void???

Nice play, Steve.
 

fuji

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The headline clearly suggests that Harper is somehow behind this and that he is moving against same sex marriage whereas he stated:

"Meanwhile, Prime Minister Stephen Harper vowed Thursday to find out why the sudden change but assured reporters that it is not a sign that his government is reopening the same-sex marriage debate."

"'As I have said before we have no intention of opening or reopening this issue,' he said."

What in the world could be more misleading. Come on you are a lot smarter than that. Why not just say oops and get on with it.
And you actually believe that a government lawyer took such a controversial step without Harper or at least his justice minister knowing about it??? This is a government that has been so controlling that it has mandated that all communications from any department be vetted by the political arm. In a government that maintains such a tight rein on the civil service, you ACTUALLY think the legal team filed a controversial position without first getting it personally signed off by the Minister of Justice, if not by the Prime Minister?!

You never previously struck me as a naive person.

Parse his words carefully: He does not want to "reopen the debate". It is a non-denial denial. He was asked if he was behind the legal filings, and he responded by saying he wouldn't introduce any legislation. That's a dodge. Presumably he doesn't think it is "reopening the debate" if he accomplishes it in court with lawyers, rather than in Parliament with law.
 

toguy5252

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And you actually believe that a government lawyer took such a controversial step without Harper or at least his justice minister knowing about it??? This is a government that has been so controlling that it has mandated that all communications from any department be vetted by the political arm. In a government that maintains such a tight rein on the civil service, you ACTUALLY think the legal team filed a controversial position without first getting it personally signed off by the Minister of Justice, if not by the Prime Minister?!

You never previously struck me as a naive person.

Parse his words carefully: He does not want to "reopen the debate". It is a non-denial denial. He was asked if he was behind the legal filings, and he responded by saying he wouldn't introduce any legislation. That's a dodge. Presumably he doesn't think it is "reopening the debate" if he accomplishes it in court with lawyers, rather than in Parliament with law.
When the Prime Minister of Canada makes a statement I take him at his word. I have no reason not to.

I am not naive at all, perhaps just not either as prescient or cynical as you.
 

fuji

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When the Prime Minister of Canada makes a statement I take him at his word.
Two problems:

1. This government has a history of being less than honest about its actions, there have been several cases of Ministers being forced to admit they knew things they had denied knowing, and

2. What did he actually say?

In saying he does not want to "reopen the debate" I take that to mean he has no plans to introduce legislation changing the definition of marriage. I am 100% convinced that is true.

However, he has NOT denied that his government was behind the court filings to roll back marriages performed for people from Conservative jurisdictions outside Canada. This is the same as when he says he does not want to reopen the abortion debate, but then takes a variety of initiatives to rollback abortion services provided to people outside Canada. He is keeping his word that he will not introduce legislation, while using administrative policy to chip away at these rights.

Here's what David Miller had to say on the idea that the PM did not know:

Mr. Miller scoffed at any notion the federal position could be a “technicality” devised by a particular federal prosecutor. He said it is inconceivable the federal move was not made with the full knowledge of the Prime Minister.

“I ran a major government – the sixth largest government in Canada – and I can tell you that this kind of decision would not happen without the Prime Minister being briefed,” Mr. Miller said.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...e-sex-marriages-can-be-undone/article2300179/
 

toguy5252

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Jun 22, 2009
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Two problems:

1. This government has a history of being less than honest about its actions, there have been several cases of Ministers being forced to admit they knew things they had denied knowing, and

2. What did he actually say?

In saying he does not want to "reopen the debate" I take that to mean he has no plans to introduce legislation changing the definition of marriage. I am 100% convinced that is true.

However, he has NOT denied that his government was behind the court filings to roll back marriages performed for people from Conservative jurisdictions outside Canada. This is the same as when he says he does not want to reopen the abortion debate, but then takes a variety of initiatives to rollback abortion services provided to people outside Canada. He is keeping his word that he will not introduce legislation, while using administrative policy to chip away at these rights.

Here's what David Miller had to say on the idea that the PM did not know:



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...e-sex-marriages-can-be-undone/article2300179/
Two problems:

1. We are speaking of the PM of Canada. I am not aware of him being less than honest with the Canadian people; and

2. You do not understand how the judicial system works. The government has not filed anything to roll back anything. Even if everything you say is true (and I do not accept that it is) then at worst the government has asked the Court to declare what the law in Canada is. The law is what it is. Parliament has jurisdiction to write and change laws. The SCC is the final arbiter of what the law is.
 

fuji

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Let me ask you point blank:

Do you think a government lawyer would be allowed to file an opinion in court asserting that it is the opinion of the Government of Canada that thousands of same sex marriages are not legal, without the Minister of Justice having first been briefed about it?

Further, do you think that the Minister of Justice would agree to such a thing without first briefing the Prime Minister?
 

Tangwhich

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You have been reading the headlines of the clown brothers for too long. It is effecting your own headline writing skills.
When he has a thorn up his ass for someone he hates, he throws all objectivity out of the window. The bias on this guy gets to unbelievable proportions. It's a shame because he does genuinely seem to be an intelligent guy with some well thought out arguments. But when it comes to certain topics (ie. anything about the conservatives or rob ford) he's so narrow minded that it really casts a bad light on the rest of his postings. I guess that's why so many people have him on ignore.
 

oldjones

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While I'm quite prepared to believe the worst of the Harper Government, this seems like a sensible and legitimate concern in marriage law to me. Like quickie Mexican divorces, the issue has to do with people establishing fictional residency to evade the laws of their home and secure some sort of formal recognition from somewhere else of a state of marriage—or divorce—that their own jurisdiction doesn't allow. The real question is: Are you married where you live? Don't answer hastily, we just had a court case that says polygamy's not criminal, so is a legal Saudi marriage of two wives binding here? Why would a Canadian marriage of two guys be binding anywhere but Canada?

The basis of marriage law (divorce law being a sub-species) is that it can only be applied and enforced on residents. Anyone who travels for the specific purpose of divorcing or marrying without first enquiring closely of lawyers at both ends is taking a risk that their legal situation will be unclear and perhaps not all they wished when they get back home. But uncertain and not what you expected is kinda the essence of marriage isn't it?

The government lawyers could have ignored the fiction of marriage tourism, followed by equally fictional divorce tours, when all the while back home the legal reality was unchanged: that the partners were living in all kindsa sin, w/o benefit of marriage. But it makes some sense that they insist the marriage laws they're responsible for should be taken more seriously than a cut-price DisneyWorld weekend.

Bottom-line: The couple has a souvenir license, and were never married back home so they need no divorce to split there. What's their problem?
 

toguy5252

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Let me ask you point blank:

Do you think a government lawyer would be allowed to file an opinion in court asserting that it is the opinion of the Government of Canada that thousands of same sex marriages are not legal, without the Minister of Justice having first been briefed about it?

Further, do you think that the Minister of Justice would agree to such a thing without first briefing the Prime Minister?
I am Jewish so i hope you will forgive me if I answer a question with a question because the question you have asked has nothing at all to do with my objection to your headline..

Given that the SCC declares what the law of Canada is and that Harper who has the ability to introduce and pass legislation has said he has no intention of doing so, then is what sense of the Queens's English has Harper moved against same sex marriage.
 

fuji

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In the sense that he has ordered the government to devote its legal resources to opposing same sex marriages. Note they did not intervene on the side of the couple.
 

toguy5252

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Jun 22, 2009
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In the sense that he has ordered the government to devote its legal resources to opposing same sex marriages. Note they did not intervene on the side of the couple.
Firstly you are now accusing the PM of lying because he said that he was not aware. Secondly there is nothing in the case which I have read so far that opposes same sex-marriage. it deals with the validity of certain marriages based on Canadian laws of domicile and recognition of foreign laws. this kind of issue comes up in varying when in connection with the application of Canadian laws. It appears that the couples lawyer agreed with this.

"Ms. McCarthy said California, which recently faced a similar problem, passed a law recognizing the validity of same-sex marriages involving non-residents so they could obtain divorces. “That’s exactly what we could do here,” she said. “But it requires legislative action, and that is not something that has happened with great speed in relation to gays and lesbians in the past.”


It appears that at least in part the problem is not with what the law is but what the couple hoped it would be. It therefore appears that the government lawyers position may in fact represent the law of Canada as it exists. Would you expect a government lawyer to do less.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...f-reopening-same-sex-marriage/article2299574/
 
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