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Greece given world's lowest credit rating

fuji

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The Greek language, not German holds an important place in the histories of Europe, the more loosely defined "Western" world and Christianity.
Sure. 2000 years ago. More recently they've been one of the basketcases of Europe. They are plainly spending beyond their needs, the whole society is rife with corruption, they all dodge paying their taxes and then demand expensive services, public employees are paid up to 3x as much as private sector equivalents, they have utterly ridiculous entitlements like retirement at 50 paid by the state for many, and the whole thing is paid for by unsustainable borrowing.

Well, "unsustainable" if Greece has to pay for it. The Greeks are obviously hoping to convince others to pay their way, and may succeed in bilking Europe out of more money for awhile. But the party cannot go on forever, sooner or later Greece is going to have to re-align to something it can actually afford to pay for.
 

themexi

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Jun 12, 2006
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As long as people continue to fall for the scams that are Fiat currency & fractional reserve banking there will ALWAYS be problems like this..

Without these scams inflation would still happen her & there but it wouldnt be a foregone conclusion & an accellerating one at that...

People tribes & even nations have existed for generations without the fiscal alchemy & outright theft of these monetary devices...

It would be nice to see nation default on all this essentially manufactured, imaginary debt & say "fuck you... we have people... we have land & both produce enough to keep us fed sheltered & educated... We'll trade what we produce for for what we need & let it all sort itself out"


YOU DO NOT "NEED" Government Scrip!!!! All you need is something of value & the bility to trade like people have done forever...

YOU DO NOT "NEED"Loans at intrest!!!! ll you need is to be reliable & productive enough that others want to INVEST in your business...



If you re stupid enough to trust the politicians & the moneychangers to Handle your wealth then expect to have it diminished by th fees they charge.......... If you're TRULY retarded & also allow them the power to FORCE you to use their rigged systems then you get what you deserve..
 

Loosely

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Sure. 2000 years ago. More recently they've been one of the basketcases of Europe. They are plainly spending beyond their needs, the whole society is rife with corruption, they all dodge paying their taxes and then demand expensive services, public employees are paid up to 3x as much as private sector equivalents, they have utterly ridiculous entitlements like retirement at 50 paid by the state for many, and the whole thing is paid for by unsustainable borrowing.

Well, "unsustainable" if Greece has to pay for it. The Greeks are obviously hoping to convince others to pay their way, and may succeed in bilking Europe out of more money for awhile. But the party cannot go on forever, sooner or later Greece is going to have to re-align to something it can actually afford to pay for.
In modern society there are over 100 thousand Greek words used in the English language and Greek roots are used to create new words for other languages especially in modern science and medicines (your meds reference, above). Tax dodging is a general issue in every nation or as we stated a "human trait". Ironically, 2000 yrs later the Greeks didn't have to teach the Asians to read and write backwards, it just happened on its own! :rolleyes:


Did you know that Greece was the birthplace of Democracy and Alexander the Great held the title Lord of Asia?
 

Meister

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Apr 17, 2003
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It's a little bit rich to go back to pre-war Germany and assert that its policies reflect on the modern German state.

The war reparations imposed on Germany after WW1 are also widely regarded as having been unfair and punitive. I'm not aware of anyone who thinks that any unfair and punitive debts have been piled onto Greece. Greece's democratically elected government willingly took on all of those debts, and nobody complained about it at the time when they were living high on the hog.

On the other hand I agree in part with the idea behind the article--that whatever happens to Greece, it should be with a view to creating a positive future. The Greeks fucked up badly, and it's tempting to be vindictive and say that they should go to hell, but the example of Germany in 1931 shows that this sort of punitive approach leads to future problems.

Greece is a real mess.
The article also forgets to mention that Germany has dug itself out of a hole after WWII by being a leader in quality products. Many of these products were sold in Greece and the rest of the world. I don't need to list the products here. This resulted in tremendous wealth for Germany. If they did not make a push for quality products Germany might still be a 2nd rate nation.
If Greece defaults then they would start over with agricultural life and tourism. You can not compare the 2 countries.
 

fuji

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In modern society there are over 100 thousand Greek words used in the English language and Greek roots are used to create new words for other languages especially in modern science and medicines (your meds reference, above). Tax dodging is a general issue in every nation or as we stated a "human trait". Ironically, 2000 yrs later the Greeks didn't have to teach the Asians to read and write backwards, it just happened on its own! :rolleyes:


Did you know that Greece was the birthplace of Democracy and Alexander the Great held the title Lord of Asia?
Sure. 2000 years ago. More recently they've been the basketcase of Europe... the fact that the Greeks plainly made important historical contributions to Western culture does not somehow entitle them to go on a massive spending spree today, spending money they don't have, and then going around Europe begging others to bail them out. They're doing that, but it's not right. Greece today is not "lord of Europe", it's the beggar of Europe, a country rife with corruption, full of tax evaders, of people who think they are entitled to rich payouts they did not actually earn, who think nothing of demanding massive payments from the government while evading their own responsibility to pay taxes.

Greece needs to get its financial house in order. It's a mess. They fucked up.
 

Loosely

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I find it hard to believe the EU will let Greece go out on defaults as it's the heart and soul of Europe and the key to the Balkans and the Greeks are known to reform at the last minute.

True saying, The two most common elements in the world are hydrogen and stupidity. Don't drown the man who taught you to swim.
 
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fuji

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I find it hard to believe the EU will let Greece go out on defaults as it's the heart and soul of Europe and the key to the Baltic's and the Greeks are known to reform at the last minute.
I think the EU has a strong desire not to allow it to default, but it'll depend on whether Greece is willing to put some sensible austerity measures in place. If Greece WON'T do that, default is probably a better option than throwing good money after bad.
 

Roommates

Senior Member
Greek protests turn violent as EU warns of default

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/28/us-eurozone-idUSTRE75R23T20110628


(Reuters) - Anti-austerity protests turned violent in Athens on Tuesday as the European Union warned Greek lawmakers the country faces immediate default unless they back an unpopular economic plan this week.
Hooded youths throwing stones and wielding sticks set fire to garbage bins and a telecoms truck outside parliament and riot police fired teargas to disperse them. Trade unions began a 48-hour strike against the EU/IMF-imposed measures.
Progress was meanwhile reported in talks to persuade European banks and insurers to voluntarily roll over maturing Greek debt under a planned second rescue package designed to give the euro zone country a breathing space.
Growing market confidence that the Greek parliament will approve the austerity program and that a French plan to roll over Greek sovereign bonds will help avert a default lifted global stocks and the euro despite the mayhem in Athens.
The EU's top economic official, Olli Rehn, stressed that any further assistance for the debt-crippled nation hinged on parliament adopting a raft of spending cuts, tax rises and privatizations in crucial votes on Wednesday and Thursday.
"The only way to avoid immediate default is for parliament to endorse the revised economic program ... They must be approved if the next tranche of financial assistance is to be released," he said in a statement.
"To those who speculate about other options, let me say this clearly: there is no Plan B to avoid default," Rehn said, dismissing widespread reports that Brussels was working on a fallback plan to keep Greece afloat.
The blunt alternative was underscored by Bank of England Governor Mervyn King, who told British parliamentarians that policymakers were working on ways to limit the damage from a potential default on Greece's 340 billion euro debt pile.
"What we're doing is to say there is sufficient concern in the market about the possibility of default for us to think about contingency plans and the consequences of this event," King said.
He urged greater transparency about sovereign exposures to prevent a sudden, broad-based loss of confidence in European banks in the event of a Greek default, which could trigger a new credit crunch.
By nightfall, several hours of clashes involving hundreds of youths had subsided and central Athens had been reclaimed by thousands of peaceful protesters denouncing measures they say hit salaried workers and the unemployed while sparing the rich.
Some 5,000 police were drafted in, mostly to protect the colonnaded parliament building on Syntagma Square, focal point of weeks of mass demonstrations, some modeled on the encampment of unemployed Spanish "indignados" in Madrid.
ROLLOVER PROGRESS
The EU and IMF have said Greece must enact both the five-year austerity plan, with 28.6 billion euros in savings, and key implementing laws for structural reforms and state asset sales to secure the next 12 billion euro slice of aid in July.
Without that, Athens would run out of money within weeks unless it received some outside lifeline.
Risk premia on lower-rated euro zone government debt fell on news that German banks had agreed in principle to use a French proposal as a basis for negotiating private-sector participation in a Greek debt rollover.
The euro also hit a session high against the dollar, with fears of a Greek default offset by signs that European authorities and banks are making progress on a debt rollover.
Prime Minister George Papandreou's Socialists hold a narrow majority with 155 seats in the 300-member legislature, but a handful of lawmakers have defected and others are threatening to vote against some or all of the measures, putting the outcome in doubt.
One possible scenario that could cause trouble would be if parliament approved the five-year austerity plan but voted down some of the implementing bills, for example on privatizations.
Conservative opposition leader Antonis Samaras underlined his opposition to the economic plan despite massive pressure from fellow center-right European leaders to back it.
"This policy is wrong, it has exhausted the Greek people and Greek society," he told parliament. "If we perpetuate this mistaken policy we will only make things worse, both for Greece and for Europe."
If Greece approves the legislation, euro zone finance ministers meeting in Brussels on Sunday are likely to agree to release the next aid tranche, with the IMF following on July 5.
Attention will then switch to putting together a second rescue package for Greece of about the same magnitude as the initial 110 billion euro bailout agreed last year.
The new program would involve some 30 billion euros in private sector participation via a "voluntary" rollover of maturing debt, a similar sum from privatization revenues and an expected 55 billion euros in new official funding.
Euro zone banks and insurers are considering a French plan outlined by President Nicolas Sarkozy on Monday under which private bondholders would reinvest half of the proceeds of maturing Greek debt in new 30-year bonds paying 5.5 percent interest plus a bonus linked to Greece's GDP growth rate.
Of the other half, 30 percent would be cashed out and 20 percent would be invested in zero-coupon AAA securities with deferred interest that might be issued or guaranteed by the euro zone rescue fund, officials and banking sources said.
French banks have the largest foreign private sector exposure to Greece, followed by Germany.
Two sources close to the negotiations told Reuters that German banks had agreed to use the "French model" as a basis for talks with the German Finance Ministry on Thursday. German Deputy Finance Minister Joerg Asmussen also called the French plan a good basis for discussions.
Credit ratings agencies withheld comment pending details of the scheme.
Standard & Poor's said on Monday it was too soon to judge the ratings impact of the private debt rollover being put together for Greece, which it had not yet seen, but did not rule out avoiding a downgrade to default.
Asked if he could imagine a solution in which private creditors voluntarily contributed to a Greek rescue package without triggering an S&P downgrade, Moritz Kraemer, head of European sovereign ratings, told Austrian television:
"It is conceivable depending on the situation. That is why I say it is not possible at all to draw a final conclusion on this in the current situation."
In Berlin, visiting Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jiabao said Beijing had faith in the European economy and the euro and was optimistic that Europe could overcome its temporary challenge.
As in the past, he gave a vague commitment to buying euro zone debt without specifying countries or amounts.
(additional reporting by George Georgiopoulos in Athens, Philipp Halstrick and Ed Taylor in Frankfurt, Marius Zaharia and Ana Nicolai da Costa in London, Mike Shields in Vienna, Stephen Brown in Berlin; Writing by Paul Taylor, editing by Mike Peacock/Janet McBride)
 

Rockslinger

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I saw a brief interview on TV of a Greek protestors. He said why should he pay taxes to support a bloated bureaucracy whose members make triple what he makes and can retire on full pension at age 53? Imagine a Greek criticizing his own government bureaucracy for being bloated and grossly overpaid.:mad:
 

Asterix

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Aug 6, 2002
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Greece is fucked. They got used to privileges and will be damned if they'll give them up easily.
 

fuji

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Greece is fucked. They got used to privileges and will be damned if they'll give them up easily.
Yeah. Default might actually be the better option. If Europe walked away for awhile and they were forced to pay the bills they may start to realize how ludicrous their situation really is.
 

Loosely

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Canada can also have a big fat gravy train if we elect the NDP to power. Imagine retiring at age 50 on a 95% pension, pay no taxes, free subway rides, work for the government and make triple what stupid private sector employees make, never have to repay your loans or credit cards, etc.
The current Greek gov't have been corrupted over 50 years by NDP rule from generations of the last name Papandreous and imagine generations of Bob Rae's Ontario NDP's for Canada? This form of Gov't will not work for EU.
 

Loosely

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Default would be a blessing for Greece as it was crushed by debt from hosting the 2004 Olympic Games, and it tumbled international lenders. If you recall, the Montreal 1976 Olympics was a financial disaster, as the city faced debts well after the Games had finished. The Montreal games are the most expensive Games ever and remains a monument to the huge deficit, as it never had an effective retractable roof, and the tower was completed well after the Olympics. Greeks have a problem with lack of jobs to pay bills and taxes added woes from generation of Greek gov't corruption, the current scenario.
 

fuji

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Default would be a blessing for Greece as it was crushed by debt from hosting the 2004 Olympic Games, and it tumbled international lenders.
Be careful what you wish for. It would force on Greece the "austerity measures" that they're currently trying to avoid. The government will simply run out of money and cutting back on various programmes will not be a choice, but a cash reality.
 

blackrock13

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Default would be a blessing for Greece as it was crushed by debt from hosting the 2004 Olympic Games, and it tumbled international lenders. If you recall, the Montreal 1976 Olympics was a financial disaster, as the city faced debts well after the Games had finished. The Montreal games are the most expensive Games ever and remains a monument to the huge deficit, as it never had an effective retractable roof, and the tower was completed well after the Olympics. Greeks have a problem with lack of jobs to pay bills and taxes added woes from generation of Greek gov't corruption, the current scenario.
You might want to check your facts. Whatever it cost, at least Montreal and Quebec was able to pay off their share of the debt, albeit in 30 years. think of it as a mortgage.
 
B

burt-oh-my!

When there is massive debt liquidation, there is one certainty:, somebody (plural), somewhere HAS to see theri standard of living fall. It is impossible to avoid that, yet that is EXACTLY what politicians ALWAYS try in vain to avoid.

They try to squirm out from the inevitable. Japan has tried for 20 years, and although at first glance it may appear as though they have succeeded (remember, even though Japanese growth has been largely non-existent for 20 years, they still have low unemployment and a high standard of living), they have actualy only deferred the reduction in standard of living by building up huge debts which will eventually reduce somebody;s standard of living in Japan.

To be honest, I am increasingly of the view that letting the whole damn thing implode quickly is the best bet.
 

Loosely

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You might want to check your facts. Whatever it cost, at least Montreal and Quebec was able to pay off their share of the debt, albeit in 30 years. think of it as a mortgage.
That's good news for Greece because it has been in debt for only 7 yrs and they can match or beat Montreal's Olympics of 30 years mortgageable loans. I was informed that Greece parliament has voted in the "Austerity measures", paving way for more loans... OPA ! I shot of ouzo for everyone to go along with more Souvlakia!:rolleyes:
 

Rockslinger

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I am really disappointed with the behaviour of the Greeks. Taking to the streets and committing all kinds of vandalism. (Do they think Greece is Vancouver?)

They are acting like spoiled brats whose credit cards got taken away.
 
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