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Are you attracted to all ethnicities equally, or are you like John Mayer?

fuji

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The idea that asian women make for better (read more docile, submissive, reverent) wives/fuck among white men is still very much prevalent
Depending on the country of origin the stereotype is either dead on, or completely ridiculous. My estimation is that many Japanese women do play into this docile role, but try and treat a Korean or Chinese woman as if she were a docile Japanese housewife and you are likely to get a punch in the nose. No doubt it's still a stereotype and you could call it racist, but in Japan the stereotype has been internalized by a good chunk of the population, male and female.

The notion that all asian women are the same, though, is patently ridiculous: Whatever stereotypes Chinese or Korean women may have internalized, "be a docile house wife" is not one of them. I think they're more likely to have internalized "be tough and treat a man like crap and he'll think you're a challenge and love you more". Many Chinese women in particular seem to have a strong concept of "face" and will never back down from something they've said if they think doing so would appear in any way weak.
 

genintoronto

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Likewise true, the problem which you do not mention is that since being accused of being racist has become in the U.S. and Canada a "high voltage wire", something akin to being labeled a pedofile murderer, using the term to cover what you and some others are speaking of is anymore dangerious and certainly is not going to be appreciated by those to whom the label is applied.
I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you suggesting that we should stop talking about race and racism because it makes people feel uncomfortable and offend their sensibilities? Racism should make people uncomfortable.

Or maybe I misread you.
 

fuji

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Racism should make people uncomfortable.
Unfortunately sometimes the fear of being called a racist makes people so uncomfortable that they shy away from having sometimes difficult conversations about cultural and racial differences, which in the end only makes it harder to reach an understanding. While it's true that at the end of the day people everywhere are more or less the same, they do not present their feelings or express themselves in more or less the same ways, don't always believe the same things, and often see things differently. Avoiding those conversations because "you're really different" sounds racist is a bad thing.
 

tboy

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Is it not possible that one could be attracted to Asians, Blacks, Whites, Browns, etc. without racial overtones? If one can be attracted to differentiators within their own race (say hair colour for whites) why can one not be attracted to races the same way?
I have to agree. There are certain attribues that I find attractive in a woman and not many races have examples of it. For eg: Grace Park is korean. I think she is drop dead gorgeous and would F her in a second. BUT, how many koreans look like her? Not many and I used to live 2 blocks from Koreatown and shopped there frequently. I have dated 3 black women and while they were attractive, there were many differences I just couldn't get over. I have dated Japanese, Italian, Portugese, Greek, Chinese, Trailer Trash and sorry, but my fav by far is white middle class canuck. Blonde or brunette.

As for 6 foot tall runway models, I don't know what society is telling you, but it certainly isn't telling ME to be attracted to them. In most cases, I don't find them attractive at all. (something an ex couldn't understand or believe either). The "model" type that I find MOST atrractive is the GND type. One presented naturally and with little or no makeup. This little rule of thumb I use as whether a woman is a keeper or not: if she looks as good when she wakes up in the morning (to me) as she did when we get dressed to the nines and go out for a fancy dinner, then yeah, there's something there. I have met, oh, 4 women in my life who (to me) looked as adorable made up as they do waking up with dried drool on their cheek, a case of the samzass (where your breathe smells the same as your ass), and can far so bad that hazmat has to be called in......

BTW: one thing about dating a really black woman? In the dark her pussy is so pink that it almost glows in the dark and makes it EASY to find lol.....
 

Aardvark154

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I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you suggesting that we should stop talking about race and racism because it makes people feel uncomfortable and offend their sensibilities? Racism should make people uncomfortable.

Or maybe I misread you.
You I believe misunderstand me.

I am saying that the term racist has become "touching the third rail." Nothing much is accomplished after the accusation is leveled. Given that, as you said (or at least to me implied) amongst rational people its use is restricted to those situations where the accusation can meet a legal challenge, otherwise out in the nine to five world one is running a legal risk in accusing people left right and sideways (not that you are).

Further my own experience has been that regrettably it is an area in which constructive conversation or engagement as part of conferences or training sessions is frankly rare. They generally merely degenerate into "beat up on Whitey" sessions in which there is little constructive exchange of views and perspectives.
 

Aardvark154

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Unfortunately sometimes the fear of being called a racist makes people so uncomfortable that they shy away from having sometimes difficult conversations about cultural and racial differences, which in the end only makes it harder to reach an understanding. While it's true that at the end of the day people everywhere are more or less the same, they do not present their feelings or express themselves in more or less the same ways, don't always believe the same things, and often see things differently. Avoiding those conversations because "you're really different" sounds racist is a bad thing.
Once again I agree.
 

toughb

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I call bull shit to most of this. Give me one example of a non white country that you consider less racist. Canada is bending over backwards to accomodate different races. Too much in my opinion. And you say this is a racist country. Need a lift to the airport?
***

May I second your comment?


...:)
 

tboy

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Once again about the olympics: how about the summer games? Are they as diverse as they should be? I guess Ben Johnson doesn't qualify.......
 

toughb

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The problem with those kinds of discussion is that in contemporary Western society, racism is understood by most people to mean only overt and flagrant act of racial discrimination and violence, rather than considering racism as a structure of beliefs that categorizes, stereotypes, and hiearchises people according to racial lines, and which permeate every aspects of social life, from personal preferences to systemic and institutional structure of exclusion and violence. In other words, unless someone is a proud and out member of the KKK or uses racial slurs, no one is racist.

Going back to the example of porn: the ways in which Black guys for instance are portrayed in porn (as sexually and physically agressive and violent, with giant monster wang, often fucking tiny little white spinners, and often corrolated to the humiliation of an impotent white guy in cuckolding scenarios) is very much reminiscent of colonial myths and narratives of the dangerous Black native preying on and raping the modest and virginal White women (which is in direct opposition to the realities of colonialism and slavery, where Black/native women were routinely raped by the White colonizers and slave owners, often done in front of their lovers/family to serve as a repressive tool against dissent to the colonial/slavery order). Similarly, asian women are typically portrayed as submissive and docile, as more gracious and grateful then their white sisters: again, this is very reminiscent of colonial portrayal of asian women, who were portrayed as such, often in opposition to the new liberated and immodest white women back home who were threatening the status quo of the time by organizing for the recognition of their rights and who were starging to leave the house. The idea that asian women make for better (read more docile, submissive, reverent) wives/fuck among white men is still very much prevalent, and a quick search on Terb would find quite a few hits where guys make those claims.

Porn is only one (although maybe the most obvious one in this case) example of a social site which circulate racial ideas about people, and which influence our sense of self and preferences.

ETA: Another point to consider. Colonialism and racism, as two interrelated systems and structures of power, have historically produced ideas about race which not only categorize and stereotype people according to their race, but also locate them socially according to a complex hierarchy of races: on top of that racial/colonial hierarchy of "desirability" or "worthyness" are white aryan people (with Southern European below them, but above the Irish, also referred to as "white negros"), at the bottom of the hierarchies are aboriginals and black African, with North African and Middle-Eastern people being slighly above the bottom, and asian somewhere in the middle (East-Asian such as Indians being at the bottom of this sub-category, with Japanese, Chinese and Korean at the top).

Now, consider the demand for SPs along racial/ethnic lines: all other things (such as rates and services) being equal, a cursory look at reviews and recommendations threads on Terb suggest that there is a significant higher demand for white and asian SPs, than for black SPs, with EI SPs sitting somewhere in the middle. A similar pattern seems to be present when we look at agencies website (even after taking into account the racial distribution of the population in TO). Many black SPs will tell you that it is very difficult to get agency to agree to represent them, especially if there's already one or two black SPs working for that agency, because the perception is that there is not enough demand for black SPs. Noir and other black SPs have commented about this on this board, and suggested that many black SPs feel that they have to offer wider services in order to be as busy as their white or asian co-workers.

Are we to understand those patterns as mere coincidence and the mere result of an aggregate of individual choices and preferences?

Again, I don't think that one should go against their sexual preferences just for the sake of being politically correct. But I think that anyone who believe that their sexual preferences come from a social vacuum (ie,1) aren't influenced in the least by ideas circulating in society about race) are kidding themselve. And yes, I include myself in those people who's sexual preferences are influenced by race. While I'm an equal opportunity lover, I do recognize that race most likely play a role in who gets me hot or not, and why.

***

Yes to all you've posted but what is new there? Anyone with half a brain should already know what you've posted.

Am I missing something here. 1) social vacuum? I don't see that anywhere and I have a vast experience with dealing with the great unwashed.

...:)
 

toughb

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Have we been reading the same thread?
***

"Yes to all you've posted but what is new there? Anyone with half a brain should already know what you've posted."

I would surely hope so as I just agreed with you.

With no disrespect what you've written reads like an educational text book. The average individual, in one way or another, knows all of this. What I fail to see is why the long explanation of known reality.

...:)
 
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genintoronto

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***

"Yes to all you've posted but what is new there? Anyone with half a brain should already know what you've posted."

I would surely hope so as I just agreed with you.

With no disrespect what you've written reads like an educational text book. The average individual, in one way or another, knows all of this. What I fail to see is why the long explanation of known reality.

...:)
Well apparently, many people here either do not know about this "known reality", or believe that this known reality doesn't affect them, since so many people have claimed that their racial preference in sexual/romantic partner have nothing to do with race. They were just born that way, and socialization has had absolutely no effect on their preferences.
 

Viggo Rasmussen

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I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you suggesting that we should stop talking about race and racism because it makes people feel uncomfortable and offend their sensibilities? Racism should make people uncomfortable.

Or maybe I misread you.
I fully agree, Gen - we should encourage more talk about racism, not dampen it. We should acknowledge our own racist traits whether they are major or minor and try to understand where they come from and if they are always harmful. We need more openness and honesty about ourselves, that's the best way to move forward.
 

toughb

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Aug 29, 2006
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Well apparently, many people here either do not know about this "known reality", or believe that this known reality doesn't affect them, since 1) so many people have claimed that their racial preference in sexual/romantic partner have nothing to do with race. They were just born that way, and socialization has had absolutely no effect on their preferences.

***

As I head off air.

1) Yes it does. That said it is not racism.

Racism:-

"The prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races."

"Discriminatory or abusive behaviour towards members of another race."

It's preference. Nothing more.

...:)
 

genintoronto

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***

As I head off air.

1) Yes it does. That said it is not racism.

Racism:-

"The prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races."

"Discriminatory or abusive behaviour towards members of another race."

It's preference. Nothing more.

...:)
Well, that's exactly the point that I'm arguing against. If you don't mind me quoting myself (in my educational text book ways):

genintoronto said:
The problem with those kinds of discussion is that in contemporary Western society, racism is understood by most people to mean only overt and flagrant act of racial discrimination and violence, rather than considering racism as a structure of beliefs that categorizes, stereotypes, and hiearchises people according to racial lines, and which permeate every aspects of social life, from personal preferences to systemic and institutional structure of exclusion and violence. In other words, unless someone is a proud and out member of the KKK or uses racial slurs, no one is racist.
In other words, myself and a few others here are arguing that racism encompasses more than what you describe above, which is basically the legal (and limited) definition of racism in Western society. I am talking of racism as a social dynamics, not as a legal issue.
 

Aardvark154

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In other words, myself and a few others here are arguing that racism encompasses more than what you describe above, which is basically the legal (and limited) definition of racism in Western society. I am talking of racism as a social dynamics, not as a legal issue.
Although I can not think of a better analogy off the top of my head, (and there must be one) with all respect Gen, using racism in the context and meaning you are is rather like using pedophila to mean that someone loves (in a positive and good way) children.

People are going to be confused and draw negative conclusions.
 

winstar

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May 22, 2007
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The problem with those kinds of discussion is that in contemporary Western society, racism is understood by most people to mean only overt and flagrant act of racial discrimination and violence, rather than considering racism as a structure of beliefs that categorizes, stereotypes, and hiearchises people according to racial lines, and which permeate every aspects of social life, from personal preferences to systemic and institutional structure of exclusion and violence. In other words, unless someone is a proud and out member of the KKK or uses racial slurs, no one is racist.

Going back to the example of porn: the ways in which Black guys for instance are portrayed in porn (as sexually and physically agressive and violent, with giant monster wang, often fucking tiny little white spinners, and often corrolated to the humiliation of an impotent white guy in cuckolding scenarios) is very much reminiscent of colonial myths and narratives of the dangerous Black native preying on and raping the modest and virginal White women (which is in direct opposition to the realities of colonialism and slavery, where Black/native women were routinely raped by the White colonizers and slave owners, often done in front of their lovers/family to serve as a repressive tool against dissent to the colonial/slavery order). Similarly, asian women are typically portrayed as submissive and docile, as more gracious and grateful then their white sisters: again, this is very reminiscent of colonial portrayal of asian women, who were portrayed as such, often in opposition to the new liberated and immodest white women back home who were threatening the status quo of the time by organizing for the recognition of their rights and who were starging to leave the house. The idea that asian women make for better (read more docile, submissive, reverent) wives/fuck among white men is still very much prevalent, and a quick search on Terb would find quite a few hits where guys make those claims.

Porn is only one (although maybe the most obvious one in this case) example of a social site which circulate racial ideas about people, and which influence our sense of self and preferences.

ETA: Another point to consider. Colonialism and racism, as two interrelated systems and structures of power, have historically produced ideas about race which not only categorize and stereotype people according to their race, but also locate them socially according to a complex hierarchy of races: on top of that racial/colonial hierarchy of "desirability" or "worthyness" are white aryan people (with Southern European below them, but above the Irish, also referred to as "white negros"), at the bottom of the hierarchies are aboriginals and black African, with North African and Middle-Eastern people being slighly above the bottom, and asian somewhere in the middle (East-Asian such as Indians being at the bottom of this sub-category, with Japanese, Chinese and Korean at the top).

Now, consider the demand for SPs along racial/ethnic lines: all other things (such as rates and services) being equal, a cursory look at reviews and recommendations threads on Terb suggest that there is a significant higher demand for white and asian SPs, than for black SPs, with EI SPs sitting somewhere in the middle. A similar pattern seems to be present when we look at agencies website (even after taking into account the racial distribution of the population in TO). Many black SPs will tell you that it is very difficult to get agency to agree to represent them, especially if there's already one or two black SPs working for that agency, because the perception is that there is not enough demand for black SPs. Noir and other black SPs have commented about this on this board, and suggested that many black SPs feel that they have to offer wider services in order to be as busy as their white or asian co-workers.

Are we to understand those patterns as mere coincidence and the mere result of an aggregate of individual choices and preferences?

Again, I don't think that one should go against their sexual preferences just for the sake of being politically correct. But I think that anyone who believe that their sexual preferences come from a social vacuum (ie, aren't influenced in the least by ideas circulating in society about race) are kidding themselve. And yes, I include myself in those people who's sexual preferences are influenced by race. While I'm an equal opportunity lover, I do recognize that race most likely play a role in who gets me hot or not, and why.
I love this woman.

Marry me? lol! Gen, you said some of what I was trying to elude to in a much more eloquent and articulate way, without the drama. What you said, that I didn't, was a great analysis to add. Thank you for your input on this. I've always admired you, and respect you as a highly intelligent, socially aware individual.

I'm glad you weighed in on this, because I am sure as an SP, you see the other side of racial preferences from the client's point of view, and through your interactions with other SP's here in Toronto. I must add to anyone who has read my posts, that when I say that everyone is racist, I fully include myself in this as well, though I am becoming more self aware of my own behaviors which add/detract from these discussions. The real question is where do we go from here? Do we take the civil rights movement that occurred and move forward with it, with intelligent, honest discussions of race in Canada, or do we keep in under the table, not to discuss, because we don't want to offend other people, or have other people condemn us for our own personal perspectives, which govern all aspects of our social lives, but remain hidden when it comes to race and how we perceive ourselves and one another. I am West Indian, and I know full well the racism that is inherent in our culture. I also encourage others who have a problem with my culture to have the courage to speak up about it. We can't understand one another if we don't talk openly and honestly about how each community treats each other in Canada. In my experience with racism in Canada, no culture is racist-free. Every community has their own strong biases against other groups, for whatever reason. As long as someone has something intelligent and honest to say, and can back it up then that's ok. Maybe they're right. I don't know. I do know is that in order to progress, we need to understand. In order to understand we need to talk, and talk honestly, regardless of whether it's uncomfortable or not, and regardless of whether people perceive you as racist or not. I get called this all the time on these threads, but I fully believe if we don't enter into honest conversations about race, we can't raise social awareness about the unique peculiarities distinct and relevant to the Canadian experience, which in Toronto, is multicultural and dynamic.
 

genintoronto

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I love this woman. Marry me? lol!

The real question is where do we go from here? Do we take the civil rights movement that occurred and move forward with it, with intelligent, honest discussions of race in Canada, or do we keep in under the table, not to discuss, because we don't want to offend other people, or have other people condemn us for our own personal perspectives, which govern all aspects of our social lives, but remain hidden when it comes to race and how we perceive ourselves and one another.
I won't marry you, but for a modest rates of $250/hr, I'm happy to pretend we are, not have sex, and talk revolution with you. ;)

Seriously, and as a short answer to your question, I think that the way to go is by doing just what you've been doing. Talk about it. Challenge the dominant interpretation. But don't believe or be arrogant enough to think that the change you wish for is going to happen instantly, and that people are going to "see the light" just because you present them with a different perspective.

I very much believe in education (and by this I mean much more than formal education). I come from a very white small town in the middle of nowwhere in Quebec. Racism is rampant over there, but I never quite realized how much I had internalized it until I left home and move to TO, and started interacting with non-white people who 1) called me on my own racism, and 2) gave me a windom to look into the world from a different perspective. I wouldn't be the person I am right now if it wasn't for those friends and colleagues who called me on my shit. Still recently, I used an expression which I was completely unaware has strong racist undertone, most likely due to a combination of my whiteness and being ESL. Where I come from, it's just one of those colloquial expression that everybody uses and nobody knows where it comes from.

But that's one of the main privilege of being privileged (in this case as a white person): the privilege to not know of your own privilege (and others' lack of), and not being affected by this unawareness.
 
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