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FEDERAL PAY RAISES: Pay hikes show what Congress thinks of American workers

WoodPeckr

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LOL!!! These slugs should be getting a pay cut after what they did the last 8 years!...;)

FEDERAL PAY RAISES: Pay hikes show what Congress thinks of American workers

Livingston Daily.com | January 4, 2009

Remember, during the whole debate over a bridge loan for auto companies, how members of Congress kept saying autoworkers are overpaid? Some U.S. senators and representatives claimed United Auto Workers members were knocking down $73, even $75, per hour.


That led federal lawmakers, like U.S. Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn., to call for a cut in pay for auto workers as a condition of the "bailout."

It turns out the figure was wildly wrong. You can only get to figures that high if you include all kinds of things not typically considered wages — health care, benefits, vacation time, pension costs, retirees' health care, etc.

The real average hourly wage for a United Auto Workers carmaker, straight time, comes out to something between $28 and $30 an hour. UAW President Ron Gettelfinger testified before Congress that average pay for assemblers in the auto plants is $28 per hour. General Motors Corp. recently told The Associated Press that the average UAW laborer earns $29.78 per hour.

Hey, that is pretty good pay. A worker making those wages and working full time all year would get $58,240 or $61,942 annually, depending on which number you use.

Yeah, that's a decent living. You won't get rich making that kind of money, but it is pretty good pay.

Still, it is a far cry from the $169,300 that U.S. senators and representatives were paid this year. If Congress members really work 40 hours a week for 52 weeks out of the year (and they don't), it is well over the $73 per hour rate they so objected to. It would in fact be more than $81 per hour, and that's not counting their benefits, their health care or their pension costs.

What's more, lawmakers are going to get a raise. Yup, that $81 an hour isn't good enough for them. They deserve more. Come January, U.S. senators and representatives get an additional $4,700 in their yearly paycheck, bringing their annual haul to $174,000. Assuming again, a 40-hour week for 52 weeks, that pay rate comes to a whopping $83.65 per hour.

So let's make sure we have the logic correct — people who actually build things, in this case automobiles, deserve a pay cut from their $29.78 an hour ... it is lawmakers who deserve a boost in pay to $83.65 an hour ... for getting their facts wrong when they debate issues, like how much autoworkers get paid.

Now, one could argue that pay ought to depend on how good a job you've done, and since the auto companies are in trouble, maybe the auto workers do deserve cuts. That would be rather callous. It would ignore a lot of facts about how the economy has turned and automakers were caught off guard, but you could make that argument.

So has Congress done a good enough job to deserve a raise? In this last term, it has presided over an economy that has melted down. That is largely the result of a regulatory system described as being in shambles. The only reason the federal government isn't facing bankruptcy itself is that it can just run up the federal deficit. Unlike GM, Chrysler LLC and Ford Motor Co., which have to balance their budgets eventually, the U.S. government can just print more money.

The economic pain these days goes well beyond autoworkers. People are losing their jobs. People are losing their homes to foreclosure. People who have invested in stocks and in their houses have seen billions of dollars worth of value simply evaporate.

And congressmen are taking a pay hike.

They've actually outdone Marie Antoinette. She said, "Let them eat cake."

Congress says, "Let them take pay cuts."
 

Armagettin

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WoodPeckr said:
So let's make sure we have the logic correct — people who actually build things, in this case automobiles, deserve a pay cut from their $29.78 an hour
Yes, they are overpaid. They should be making $15 an hour. It is entry level work. Also, the benefits are too high and should be halved as well.

WoodPeckr said:
So has Congress done a good enough job to deserve a raise?
No.

The comparison has little value. Any autoworker can go into politics. It is a choice. To compare the two positions is silly. Why not throw in a Brain Surgeon, a McDonald's worker and a Missionary for good measure?

WoodPeckr said:
The only reason the federal government isn't facing bankruptcy itself is that it can just run up the federal deficit. Unlike GM, Chrysler LLC and Ford Motor Co., which have to balance their budgets eventually, the U.S. government can just print more money.
Countries do go bankrupt. It just takes longer.
 

WoodPeckr

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Armagettin said:
Yes, they are overpaid. They should be making $15 an hour. It is entry level work. Also, the benefits are too high and should be halved as well.
Great negative managerial thinking pal.
Remember it when they cut your pay in half, since you appear happy on your 'race to the bottom!....

I don't know what third world country you came from but did you ever hear of the American Dream?!?!?!?! In the USA things are supposed to get BETTER with each generation! You appear to support things getting WORSE!...:rolleyes:

Armagettin said:
No.

The comparison has little value. Any autoworker can go into politics. It is a choice. To compare the two positions is silly. Why not throw in a Brain Surgeon, a McDonald's worker and a Missionary for good measure?
FWIW, your analogy is even worse!


Armagettin said:
Countries do go bankrupt. It just takes longer.
With Dubya policy the last 8 yrs, it didn't take very long at all....
 

onthebottom

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Wow, just when you think the Pekkkr has used his most simplistic reasoning he out does himself.

The public sector rarely right-sizes itself during a downturn. While companies have to let good people go to meet market realities (I narrowly avoided having to let two very good people go this week) governments see no need to share the pain with the private sector.

Comparing the cost of a Congressmen with an Auto worker is laughable, the fact that it's even close shows just how perversely over-paid auto workers are. If you want to know what auto workers should be paid then let the market, and not a contract, decide. I think there would be long lines of high school and collage graduates willing to do what the UAW does for less money, and more importantly, less onerous work rules.

OTB
 

fuji

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WoodPeckr said:
It turns out the figure was wildly wrong. You can only get to figures that high if you include all kinds of things not typically considered wages -- health care, benefits, vacation time, pension costs, retirees' health care, etc.
Why wouldn't you include those things? From an employers point of view they are part of the cost of employing someone.

If what you're saying is that someone compared two workers--say a GM worker to a Toyota worker--and included these things for one worker but not the other then yes that would be unfair and misleading.

A good objective comparasin of two workers would include all of these costs for both workers: Add up the total package paid by the employer for each worker and divide by the number of hours worked.

Still, it is a far cry from the $169,300 that U.S. senators and representatives were paid this year.
And so it should be. A senator/represntative carries much more responsibility than an auto worker, and generally has far more skills and abilities.

Unless you believe in "to each according to his needs, from each according to his abilities" then this is as it should be!
 

JohnLarue

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WoodPeckr The real average hourly wage for a United Auto Workers carmaker said:
That $28 to $30 / hr is quite deceiving and was indubitably structured in this manner to hide the actual take home pay, just as you are currently doing.
It is a public relations # only

There is another $14 / hr in Paid vacation, overtime, holidays, night and weekend pay, break time

So in their pay packet they are paid on average around $43 / hr
= approx $ 80K a year
The average wage in the USA is $14/ hr, They do not get a break time pay!

There is a huge difference between take home pay and the cost to the companies. An additional $12 in benefits + $19/ hr in legacy cost negotiated by the UAW.
Bringing the total cost to $71 / hr

This is a concept you and your UAW brethren do not seem to
a) understand or
b) want to understand (because you might wake up to the fact you have negotiated your employers to the brink of bankruptcy)

As pointed out earlier comparing a UAW worker to a congressman is not a fair comparison. The congressman brings far more useful experience education and judgment to the table. He also must a least appear to be acting in the best interest of more than one group (Yes I know appearances can be deceiving)

A more relevant comparison is the US worker at a Honda or Toyota plant where they have approx the same skills & job requirements
$26 wage + $9 in Paid vacation, overtime, holidays, night and weekend pay, break time = $35 / hr take home pay+ $11 /hr in benefits + $3 in legacy costs = total cost = $49/ hr


It is also some what ironic you now attack the group (Congress) which has just recently saved your bacon (jobs) with a bailout package
Because they state the obvious (ie the UAW is overcompensated) you attack them. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.
(As per usual, you are always in search of someone to blame even as they try to help you)

Instead perhaps you may wish to attack the morons in your UAW negotiation team which drove the cost up to an unsustainable $71 / hr & put your jobs at risk.
You may wish to look hard at the UAW leadership compensation (in the millions) and determine if they will suffer as the average Joe will and then think about who to blame.
Just how much does Ron Gettelfinger make for running the UAW?
 

red

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Globe and Mail Blog Post

December 19, 2008


The auto bailout loans announced by the White House this morning, and those expected to be unveiled tomorrow by Ottawa, call for among other things wage and work rule concessions that will make unionized auto workers "competitive" with foreign auto makers by the end of next year.

Which foreign auto workers?

The non-union Honda workers at the Greensburg, Indiana plant that earn $14.84 per hour (all figures in U.S. dollars)? Or the Toyota workers in Georgetown, Kentucky earning $27-$30 per hour? Or the Kia workers now being hired in rural west Georgia for $14.90 an hour? Or the Toyota workers in the Prius factory set to open in Blue Springs, Mississippi? They are expected to earn about $20 an hour in 2010?

It's certain that if the Detroit-based auto industry is to survive, the United Auto Workers and the Canadian Auto Workers will be taking a pay cut above and beyond anything already negotiated. But how big a pay cut? What's the number? Will it be an average of what all the workers at foreign-owned plants earn right across the United States and Canada? Just the U.S.? Will Mexico, a NAFTA country and one with a decent-sized auto industry, also be included?

Here is an equally important question: Will the "wage" reflect just hourly earnings of auto workers, or will it reflect the total hourly labour costs to the car companies taking bailout money. The distinction matters.

If the wage number reflects mere hourly earnings, the unionized workforce is close to being in the same wage ballpark as the non-union workers at the best-paid plants - about $28 an hour. The UAW's new contract also includes a clause that stipulates that new workers will get $14 an hour as the contract is phased in.

So let's be clear: New workers in union shops are slated to be paid about the same, perhaps a bit less, than new workers at non-union plants. And existing union workers are being paid about the same as the best paid non-union workers.

Surprised? Surely you have read that auto workers for Detroit-based car companies earn $70 an hour, correct? You might have read it in the New York Times or any number of other publications - even here in the Globe and Mail.

But what that number actually reflects is the wage cost of unionized workers. Felix Simon explains what is going here in a posting on portfolio.com. The average GM assembly-line worker makes about $28 per hour in wages, and I can assure you that GM is not paying $42 an hour in health insurance and pension plan contributions. Rather, the $70 per hour figure (or $73 an hour, or whatever) is a ridiculous number obtained by adding up GM's total labor, health, and pension costs, and then dividing by the total number of hours worked. In other words, it includes all the healthcare and retirement costs of retired workers.

The actual numbers: GM's hourly labor costs are calculated by dividing the financial obligations paid to more than 700,000 workers, retired workers and surviving spouses divided by the actual hours worked by about 180,000 GM workers on the job today. That's where the $70 an hour numbers comes from; that's how a wage of $28 an hour becomes a labour cost of $70 an hour.




It's worth remembering that health care costs for the Detroit auto companies are coming out of that calculation based on the new UAW agreement that moves health care to a UAW-run trust. Health care is worth about $5-billion a year to GM alone, so this is no small number. The new UAW deal, then, takes a big whack at that $70 an hour labour cost.

In any case, the question remains: in these bailout deals are we talking about hourly earnings or hourly costs?

As for the uniquely Canadian perspective, the CAW has refused wage concessions similar to those agreed to by the UAW and continues to do so in public. And because we have a nationalized health care system, there has been no health care deal in Canada similar to the cost-saving one struck by the UAW with the Detroit-based auto companies.

I expect you can see the problem facing the Canadian and Ontario governments who have signaled they will match on a relative basis whatever help the U.S. government gives the Detroit car industry.

Not only do government officials - offering help on behalf of taxpayers - need to define whether the discussion revolves around hourly earnings or hourly costs, they also face a CAW with a very different and apparently less flexible approach than the UAW.
 

WoodPeckr

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JohnLarue said:
Just how much does Ron Gettelfinger make for running the UAW?
LOL!!!
Now your just be silly, or is that stupid Johnny.... :p~

You can bet Ron Gettelfinger was paid a LOT LESS than those 3 CEO morons that are running the Big 3 into the ground, you know those morons you apologize for by trying to deflect all blame onto the workers who's labor only account for 10% of the cost per vehicle!....:rolleyes:
 

WoodPeckr

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onthebottom said:
Wow, just when you think the Pekkkr has used his most simplistic reasoning he out does himself.

OTB
LOL!!!
Talk about being simple and the boards biggest 'simpleton', who was all wrong on 3 main points the last 8 yrs bottie shows up!....:D
bottie, you like Dubya, BLEW all your political credibility....there's nothing left!....

1. Wrong on Dubya delivering 'great economic' results with his Voodoo Bushenomics.

2. Wrong on Dubya creating all those jobs the Doofus One promised.

3. Wrong in claiming Bushenomics was nothing more than a Giant Ponzi Scheme that CBS News reported tonight was going on for the last 8 years. I've been claiming it was all Giant Ponzi Scheme, the last few years only to have bottie trot out feverishly/madly twirling his 'w' Pom-Poms to deny it!.....
 

JohnLarue

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Your missing the point
1. The congressmen are trying to help your over paid inflexible UAW brethren, & you attack them
2. The UAW must accept some of the responsibility for the mess of their industry, they have negotiated their employers into bankruptcy
3. You deftly avoided the fact that the $30 is not the take home pay & the total cost is an unsustainable $71 / hr. You avoid this issue all the time, at one point you may need to pull your head out of the sand
Probably after you have lost your job

4. Does Ron Gettelfinger make less than the CEOs of the three companies?
I do not know & thus far I have not been able to find out.
As a card carrying member you should know. (I know I would ask)
It is probably a lot more than the Congressmen you just trashed even after they tried to help you out. (unfucking believable)

Has he earned it?
Let's see in three years. If you still have an industry & jobs, maybe
If you don't then perhaps you may consider he & his predecessors negotiated the business into oblivion

The point is you should be looking within instead of looking for others (i.e govt) to solve your problems
But do not trash them after they just gave you a lifeline (That is mind boggling that you are so unappreciative and focused on blame)
 

WoodPeckr

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LOL!!!
Johnny all you do is engage in typical GF level managerial anti-union poppycock.

You know Ron makes no where near what the Big 3 incompetent CEOs made as you parrot out the 'usual' management BS line....:D
 

BottomsUp

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WoodPeckr said:
LOL!!!
Johnny all you do is engage in typical GF level managerial anti-union poppycock.

You know Ron makes no where near what the Big 3 incompetent CEOs made as you parrot out the 'usual' management BS line....:D

WRONG. Nardelli has been working for $1 a year since he took over at Chrysler.
 

JohnLarue

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WoodPeckr said:
LOL!!!
Johnny all you do is engage in typical GF level managerial anti-union poppycock.

You know Ron makes no where near what the Big 3 incompetent CEOs made as you parrot out the 'usual' management BS line....:D
Again you avoid the direct issues.
The most arrogant of which is your trashing of the people (congress) who tried to help your ungrateful cause.
That one just was too much, you need help

You also avoided the actual cash pay & total cost of the UAW
Yet you still spew out that fictitious $30 / hr #, Why? You know its not the real value

Whatever Ron makes its far too much for negotiating an industry into oblivion

Why do you feel you deserve more than twice the wage of the average US worker and if you cant get from your financially struggling employer, the rest of us should pitch in for you via our taxes?

Answer that one please, if you have the guts
 

WoodPeckr

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They keep it all hid....

BottomsUp said:
WRONG. Nardelli has been working for $1 a year since he took over at Chrysler.
LOL!!!
Not really. There's more to it than $1 a yr....they are hiding the 'rest of the Chrysler pay deal'!
Besides Nardelli don't need the money....he's still has that $210 million golden parachute from Home Depot, when he was booted out of Home Depot!....;)

Nardelli accepts $1 a year at Chrysler

By Bernard Simon in Toronto and James Politi in New York

Published: August 6 2007 17:22 | Last updated: August 6 2007 21:21

Bob Nardelli will collect a nominal salary of $1 a year in his new role as chief executive of Chrysler, according to a source familar with his pay package.

The former head of Home Depot’s compensation package at the US carmaker, which on Monday relaunched, will be incentive-based, the source added.

Mr Nardelli faced an avalanche of criticism over his $210m (£105m) severance package from US retailer Home Depot in January.

“We are not going to disclose specifics,” said the new Chrysler chairman and chief executive, adding: “My success is rooted in the success of the company.”

The Home Depot package, which has become a symbol of the outsized compensation commanded by top US executives, is sure to be raised in the context of talks under way on labour contracts between the three Detroit-based carmakers and the United Auto Workers Union.

Chrysler reported a $2bn operating loss in the first quarter and is set to demand significant concessions from its workers. Mr Nardelli said he had met Ron Gettelfinger, the UAW president, for two hours and “had a great exchange with one another”.

Chrysler said it would stick to its recovery plan, including the pursuit of overseas carmaking partnerships and alliances. “We’re going to have laser focus on the execution of this strategy,” Mr Nardelli said at ceremonies to unveil the “new” Chrysler, now controlled by Cerberus Capital Management, the US private equity group.

Daimler, the German carmaker that had owned Chrysler since 1998, retains a 20 per cent stake.

Tom LaSorda, Chrysler’s former chief executive and now president and vice-chairman, singled out Russia, Latin America and India as probable areas for joint ventures. The carmaker has been eager to lower its dependence on the slow-growing North American market. Overseas markets make up only about 15 per cent of total sales.

Chrysler also marked the change in ownership by bringing back its five-sided “pentastar” logo and launching a fresh marketing campaign.

In an interview with the Financial Times, John Snow, the former US Treasury secretary who chairs Cerberus, predicted a swift improvement. “I think you’ll see that Chrysler will be in much better shape within three years. This is a plan to get it back to profitability,” he said.
 

WoodPeckr

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JohnLarue said:
Whatever Ron makes its far too much for negotiating an industry into oblivion
If anything this applies far more aptly to the Big 3 CEOs that managed themselves into this mess.
Didn't they teach you in business school businesses fail because of BAD management? You merely use unions as your foil to mask your faults/shortcomings.

JohnLarue said:
Why do you feel you deserve more than twice the wage of the average US worker and if you cant get from your financially struggling employer, the rest of us should pitch in for you via our taxes?

Answer that one please, if you have the guts
It's called the American Dream. Perhaps you never heard of it in the third world country you came from....

The Big 3 struggles today from:
1. a contrived spike in gas prices,
2. crooked bankers that farked up the credit/finance sector and
3. FAR MORE HARDED EARNED TAX MONEY wasted in a couple needless Wars. But since your 'palin' around with these crooks in OIL, Banks and the MIC you're OK with all that corruption and WASTE.....you prefer to beat up on the little people who actually produce something people use everyday!....:rolleyes:
 

BottomsUp

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WoodPeckr said:
LOL!!!
Not really. There's more to it than $1 a yr....they are hiding the 'rest of the Chrysler pay deal'!
Besides Nardelli don't need the money....he's still has that $210 million golden parachute from Home Depot, when he was booted out of Home Depot!....;)
Come on now Woody, you say they're hiding it. I doubt it. I saw Nardelli on TV confirm it. You think he's going to lie about that, during these negotiations? Highly unlikely. There's nothing relevant about his golden parachute from Home Depot to this topic. Should Pelosi still get her salary, when she's worth millions? Makes about as much sense.
 

WoodPeckr

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Come on BU,
From his very lips.....what's he hiding?...:D

“We are not going to disclose specifics,” said new Chrysler chairman Nardelli...
 

BottomsUp

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WoodPeckr said:
Come on BU,
From his very lips.....what's he hiding?...:D

“We are not going to disclose specifics,” said new Chrysler chairman Nardelli...
The specifics not being disclosed relate to the incentive package...which is NOT salary, as I'm sure you know. And based on their performance, I'd wager he hasn't collected anything on that score either.
 

onthebottom

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WoodPeckr said:
LOL!!!
Talk about being simple and the boards biggest 'simpleton', who was all wrong on 3 main points the last 8 yrs bottie shows up!....:D
bottie, you like Dubya, BLEW all your political credibility....there's nothing left!....

1. Wrong on Dubya delivering 'great economic' results with his Voodoo Bushenomics.

2. Wrong on Dubya creating all those jobs the Doofus One promised.

3. Wrong in claiming Bushenomics was nothing more than a Giant Ponzi Scheme that CBS News reported tonight was going on for the last 8 years. I've been claiming it was all Giant Ponzi Scheme, the last few years only to have bottie trot out feverishly/madly twirling his 'w' Pom-Poms to deny it!.....
So in other words I bitch slapped you and you had nothing left.....

OTB
 

WoodPeckr

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onthebottom said:
So in other words I bitch slapped you and you had nothing left.....

OTB
LOL!!!
NOW THAT IS FUNNY!

When did you start channeling your daddy?....:D
 
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