My considered opinion on the legality of HJ's and PM's...

Perry Mason

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Aug 20, 2001
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As most of you know, I really am a lawyer. Questions about the legality of some aspects of the hobby are often discussed here and I have often participated in them from my knowledge of general principles of the criminal law.

As a matter of my own curiosity, I decided to do some thorough legal research on the question of HJ’s and PM’s at massage parlours and holistic clinics.

Both the Supreme Court of Canada and the Court of Appeal of Ontario have decided several cases (2 or 3 from Quebec and 1 from Manitoba) in recent years that involve the validity and meaning of ss. 197(1) and 210 of the Criminal Code which read as follows:
197(1)
"common bawdy-house" means a place that is
(a) kept or occupied, or
(b) resorted to by one or more persons
for the purpose of prostitution or the practice of acts of indecency.

210(1)
Every one who keeps a common bawdy-house is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years.


The basic question, then, is whether or not either HJ’s or PM’s are either acts of prostitution or acts of indecency. Nothing of what follows should be considered or taken as legal advice in relation to any particular case or person. What follows is only my personal opinion based on the recent cases, as I read them, for the purposes of our discussions, here. Each specific case depends on its own specific facts.

Prostitution is not defined in the Criminal Code. Generally, it means sexual intercourse – whether genital or oral (in case Clinton is reading this!) – in exchange for money.

But, as stated by the Court of Appeal:
“...it has been accepted for many years that prostitution consists of lewd acts for payment for the gratification of the purchaser.�

While it is clear that HJ’s and PM’s are not prostitution in the sense of sexual intercourse, the question still remains as to whether or not they are lewd acts for payment for the gratification of the purchaser.

Lewd acts is not defined in the Code or by any other case I have been able to find in Canada. Dictionaries define lewd as gross indecency; indecent; obscene; salacious; unchaste; licentious...

Whether an act is indecent, according to the Supreme Court of Canada, turns on the standards of tolerance in the community for the specific act:
“The courts must determine as best they can what the community would tolerate others being exposed to on the basis of the degree of harm that may flow from such exposure. Harm in this context means that it predisposes persons to act in an anti-social manner, in other words, a manner which society formally recognizes as incompatible with its proper functioning. The stronger the inference of a risk of harm, the lesser the likelihood of tolerance.�

It seems to me that the test for lewdness and the test for indecency or obscenity are one and the same. The test of obscenity was long ago determined by the Supreme Court of Canada to be based on the standards of tolerance in the community.

The question a judge must decide in determining these questions in any particular case has been framed by the Court of Appeal in this way:
“The issue... [is] ...whether the activities... were primarily sexual in nature."
(Emphasis added by me).

In the most recent case in the Court of Appeal specifically involving a body rub parlour, the Court of Appeal said:
“ ...there was evidence that on each occasion that a plainclothes officer attended for a massage one of the respondents offered to perform or attempted to perform acts of masturbation upon him. It would be open to a trier of fact to find that the masturbation was part and parcel of the body rub. A trier of fact could also find that these were lewd acts for payment for the sexual gratification of the customers and hence acts of prostitution.�

Are you still with me?

(continued...)
 

Perry Mason

Well-known member
Aug 20, 2001
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(Continued)

Here are the conclusions I draw from the above:

1. A PM is most unlikely to be found to be either an act of prostitution or indecency as there is substantial support for it both in Eastern and Western medicine as a useful treatment for prostate problems.

2. A HJ may or may not be an act of prostitution; it depends on the circumstances. At a rub’n’tug, if the “massage� is just an excuse to lead in to a HJ (or more, such as nudity, etc.), then it may be relatively easy for a judge to find it is primarily sexual in nature and thus an act of prostitution.

3. A HJ which is part and parcel of a genuine massage, such as is the case in many of the oriental holistic places that practice Tuina, Shiatsu, Thai, etc., is in all likelihood not primarily sexual in nature. A HJ is simply a part of the massage throughout most of Asia.

4. For a rub’n’tug to operate under a Holistic license won’t help, because it is not what they call themselves but what takes place there that matters.

5. Based on my assessment of community standards, it is highly unlikely that either a HJ or PM would, today, be considered as an act of indecency, particularly if it takes place in private between consenting adults: where is the risk of harm to anyone?

6. If a judge were to base a finding that a HJ was a lewd act because it offends the conventional rules of morality or dogma of a particular religion (read “Fundamentalist Christianity�}in that it is salacious, unchaste or licentious, then I think the Charter would trump such a definition.

7. A lot may turn on whether or not there is a specific fee for the HJ. If there is no charge above and beyond the fee for the massage, then even if it is considered lewd and for the sexual gratification of the purchaser there is no act for payment and could not be an act of prostitution.That is a fee, rather than a totally voluntary gratuity.

8. I conclude that a HJ for which there is no extra charge and which is part and parcel of a “real� massage where there are no other “extras� is “legal.�

IMHO, of course! *Putting on his flame proof armour!*

Perry
 

superquad1968

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Perry my learned friend,

Thank you very much for your hard work and your considered opinion on the subject.

Regarding points 2 & 3 of your conclusions, is the intent not determined by where you are? i.e. in western society a HJ and a massage are considered to be two separate activities and therefore prostitution by definition?

I do disagree with your belief that a HJ would be considered not an act of indecency by community. I believe if our community were polled they would believe that it is indecent. Especially when released.

Cheers,

SQ

PS I do hope that your analysis does prove to be correct. :)
 

antaeus

Active member
Sep 3, 2004
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One of the best posts ever. However, alot depends on as you say, the individual case. My musings follow; no knowledge of criminal law, but oodles with contract law.

It has always seemed to me “The issue... [is] ...whether the activities... were primarily sexual in nature." would be simple to establish in court. Establish attendants lack of training, parlours lack of RMT certification, training, advertising type, employment practices, etc. Establish found-ins operandi, rmt or lack of it experience, as well and you have the "primarily sexual"

Your points 1 - 8 bear alot of thinking about but, was there not a case recently that established the closed door massage room to be "private" therefore substantial parts or all of applicable criminal code did not apply? Parallels to parking lots, gas stations, driveways and the Highway Traffic Act?

Overall you are correct. However, in many cases are not these laws applied more as a parser than enforcer. In laying charges, the desired effect is sometimes achieved - forcing businesses to close. In this, I think you may be of incorrect interpretation “The courts must determine as best they can what the community would tolerate others being exposed to on the basis of the degree of harm that may flow from such exposure. Harm in this context means that it predisposes persons to act in an anti-social manner, in other words, a manner which society formally recognizes as incompatible with its proper functioning. � No, the perceived harm is that "it's in my neighbourhood and I want the sinful things gone"!
 

xarir

Retired TERB Ass Slapper
Aug 20, 2001
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Perry Mason said:
Generally, it means sexual intercourse – whether genital or oral (in case Clinton is reading this!) – in exchange for money.
a) Clinton never had sexual relationships with that woman.
b) Even if he did, he probably didn't have to pay. ;)


Thanks for the post Perry. Hope Sheik can afford your hourly fee! :)
 
G

Gord's Bro

Thanks Perry for the excellent -- if still not definitive -- information. Gives me something else to consider whilst on the table.

Does this research mean you're available to take on just such a case should any of us in the TERB community find ourselves (God forbid!!) in court?

G's B.
 

Chivas Regal

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Jul 5, 2002
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SHILL!!!!

Well done Perry. But you're still a Shill, re: Changs

Thanks,

Chivas Regal
 

tompeepin

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Perry Mason said:
“...it has been accepted for many years that prostitution consists of lewd acts for payment for the gratification of the purchaser.�

8. I conclude that a HJ for which there is no extra charge and which is part and parcel of a “real� massage where there are no other “extras� is “legal.�

Perry
I agree with you. So rub and tugs should list types of legitimate holistic massage and with each type you either get reverse or BS and all include a HJ for free (no paying for it). But I think that Judges would still "claim" that this was lewd acts and for payment (packaged or not) and thus prostitution, IMHO. It all comes down to the Bawdy House Laws and how the judge will interpret them. Until we get a precedent setting case, I don’t think that we'll get a break. Mind you maybe that is why prosecutors are not going after the HJ places and just the FS places; they just don’t want to set a precedence and have the bar raised. Canada is gonna open the debate about dieing in peace, how about the debate about paying to get off with out hassles?

Sheik said:
Yeah me... I owe him another lunch :D
Where are you gonna take him? To the \Y/ ?
 

Perry Mason

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Aug 20, 2001
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Feedback...


kkarn said:
...However (2) is pretty much where the debate begins & ends. Depending on which way the wind is blowing in which community will deterime how (2) is handled and decided.
superquad1968 said:
I do disagree with your belief that a HJ would be considered not an act of indecency by community. I believe if our community were polled they would believe that it is indecent.

Regarding points 2 & 3 of your conclusions, is the intent not determined by where you are? i.e. in western society a HJ and a massage are considered to be two separate activities and therefore prostitution by definition?
antaeus said:
In this, I think you may be of incorrect interpretation “The courts must determine as best they can what the community would tolerate others being exposed to on the basis of the degree of harm that may flow from such exposure. Harm in this context means that it predisposes persons to act in an anti-social manner, in other words, a manner which society formally recognizes as incompatible with its proper functioning. � No, the perceived harm is that "it's in my neighbourhood and I want the sinful things gone"!
The quote is directly from the Supreme Court, anteus, not my interpretation.

Even though one might think that the community standard of tolerance means the opinion of the community or ordinary people on the question – assuming that could be ascertained in fact, not merely in theory, by some survey, etc. – that is not what it means. It’s the judge that must determine the question from her/his knowledge and assessment of the apprehension of perceived harm to the community. That is why, in Quebec for example, touching at SC’s was held not to be indecent and why an on-premise swinger’s club would have been acquitted if the orgies had taken place in private rather than what was found to be in public.

antaeus said:
It has always seemed to me “The issue... [is] ...whether the activities... were primarily sexual in nature." would be simple to establish in court. Establish attendants lack of training,
parlours lack of RMT certification, training, advertising type, employment practices, etc. Establish found-ins operandi, rmt or lack of it experience, as well and you have the "primarily sexual"
I don’t know what you mean by “Establish found-ins operandi,� but otherwise I agree.

antaeus said:
...was there not a case recently that established the closed door massage room to be "private" therefore substantial parts or all of applicable criminal code did not apply
I haven’t come across that case, but since the public does not have access to a massage room directly or by invitation or implied invitation, it stands to reason it is not a public place.

The question of “private� or “public� is relevant in a different way: if the massage that I say in #8 is legal were to take place in The Bay’s display window at Yonge and Queen, I have no doubt it would be found to be an act of indecency.

yychobbyist said:
So did you bill someone 1.2 hrs for this?
tompeepin said:
Until we get a precedent setting case, I don’t think that we'll get a break. Mind you maybe that is why prosecutors are not going after the HJ places and just the FS places; they just don’t want to set a precedence and have the bar raised.
Gord's Bro said:
Does this research mean you're available to take on just such a case should any of us in the TERB community find ourselves (God forbid!!) in court?
Well, in fact I was retained by a client charged under these sections. Of course, I am not at liberty to discuss that case and there are other issues involved, but I did part of the research to determine whether, in that case, I could make out a defence on this basis.

The trial will take place, somewhere in Ontario, next summer. Perhaps that will be an opportunity to raise the issue square on and set that precedent!

The answer to you, Gord’s Bro, is yes!!!! Now that I have done the research, I want to argue it in a Court and set the precedent. I can’t stand the hypocrisy over sex and sexuality!!!

Chivas Regal said:
SHILL!!!!

Well done Perry. But you're still a Shill, re: Changs
Yes, my friend, it does mean that places like Chang’s, IMHO, are operating within the law! :D

Sheik said:
Yeah me... I owe him another lunch
tompeepin said:
Where are you gonna take him? To the \Y/ ?[/B
LOL!

Perry
 

thecoolguyms72

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superquad1968 said:

I do disagree with your belief that a HJ would be considered not an act of indecency by community. I believe if our community were polled they would believe that it is indecent. Especially when released.

Cheers,

SQ


I believe it would only be considered indecent if you didn't get off.
 

Perry Mason

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Aug 20, 2001
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thecoolguyms72 said:
I believe it would only be considered indecent if you didn't get off.
Or, as the expression goes, if it's long enough, hard enough and in far enough, it's in decent!

Perry
 

wrong hole

huh...
May 4, 2003
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Would it be illegal if I asked you for a handjob, Perry?
 
G

Gord's Bro

Re: Feedback...

Perry Mason said:


Well, in fact I was retained by a client charged under these sections. Of course, I am not at liberty to discuss that case and there are other issues involved, but I did part of the research to determine whether, in that case, I could make out a defence on this basis.

The trial will take place, somewhere in Ontario, next summer. Perhaps that will be an opportunity to raise the issue square on and set that precedent!

The answer to you, Gord’s Bro, is yes!!!! Now that I have done the research, I want to argue it in a Court and set the precedent. I can’t stand the hypocrisy over sex and sexuality!!!

Perry
Somebody's got to put this guy on retainer!!
 

Perry Mason

Well-known member
Aug 20, 2001
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wrong hole said:
Would it be illegal if I asked you for a handjob, Perry?
No, but it would be indecent. And dangerous, too! :D

Perry
 

tompeepin

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Mar 17, 2004
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Perry Mason said:
No, but it would be indecent. And dangerous, too!

Perry
Shhhhh ... just don't let Smerfie hear you ... he is out resident "threat" vigilante who see "threats" implied by the most innocuous statements. :p
 

HaywoodJabloemy

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Apr 3, 2002
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Is this why even within Toronto we have 32 Division going after every MP and incall for bawdy house charges, while some other Divisions don't bother?

Every MP, incall, and agency could be charged with violating the criminal code, yet police knowingly let most of them get away with it most of the time. By default, we in effect let LE make up and enforce their own laws, which can easily be 'pay us off and we'll leave you alone'.

New Zealand and most of Australia have realized how corrupt this kind of set-up can be, and have changed their laws to let MPs become legal brothels. In July, Britain's Home Secretary (similar to Justice Minister) said that Britain's laws must be reformed because they are confusing, outdated, and ineffective, and he specifically mentioned the tolerating of thinly disguised prostitution businesses such as MPs.

Why do these other countries realize there's something wrong, but Canadians don't? Do we think that we can always trust all police all the time? There could never be any corruption allegations against plain clothes police in Toronto, right?
 

Aircraft

New member
Aug 10, 2003
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Perry Mason said:
As most of you know, I really am a lawyer. Questions about the legality of some aspects of the hobby are often discussed here and I have often participated in them from my knowledge of general principles of the criminal law.

As a matter of my own curiosity, I decided to do some thorough legal research on the question of HJ’s and PM’s at massage parlours and holistic clinics.

Both the Supreme Court of Canada and the Court of Appeal of Ontario have decided several cases (2 or 3 from Quebec and 1 from Manitoba) in recent years that involve the validity and meaning of ss. 197(1) and 210 of the Criminal Code which read as follows:
197(1)
"common bawdy-house" means a place that is
(a) kept or occupied, or
(b) resorted to by one or more persons
for the purpose of prostitution or the practice of acts of indecency.

210(1)
Every one who keeps a common bawdy-house is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years.


The basic question, then, is whether or not either HJ’s or PM’s are either acts of prostitution or acts of indecency. Nothing of what follows should be considered or taken as legal advice in relation to any particular case or person. What follows is only my personal opinion based on the recent cases, as I read them, for the purposes of our discussions, here. Each specific case depends on its own specific facts.

Prostitution is not defined in the Criminal Code. Generally, it means sexual intercourse – whether genital or oral (in case Clinton is reading this!) – in exchange for money.

But, as stated by the Court of Appeal:
“...it has been accepted for many years that prostitution consists of lewd acts for payment for the gratification of the purchaser.�

While it is clear that HJ’s and PM’s are not prostitution in the sense of sexual intercourse, the question still remains as to whether or not they are lewd acts for payment for the gratification of the purchaser.

Lewd acts is not defined in the Code or by any other case I have been able to find in Canada. Dictionaries define lewd as gross indecency; indecent; obscene; salacious; unchaste; licentious...

Whether an act is indecent, according to the Supreme Court of Canada, turns on the standards of tolerance in the community for the specific act:
“The courts must determine as best they can what the community would tolerate others being exposed to on the basis of the degree of harm that may flow from such exposure. Harm in this context means that it predisposes persons to act in an anti-social manner, in other words, a manner which society formally recognizes as incompatible with its proper functioning. The stronger the inference of a risk of harm, the lesser the likelihood of tolerance.�

It seems to me that the test for lewdness and the test for indecency or obscenity are one and the same. The test of obscenity was long ago determined by the Supreme Court of Canada to be based on the standards of tolerance in the community.

The question a judge must decide in determining these questions in any particular case has been framed by the Court of Appeal in this way:
“The issue... [is] ...whether the activities... were primarily sexual in nature."
(Emphasis added by me).

In the most recent case in the Court of Appeal specifically involving a body rub parlour, the Court of Appeal said:
“ ...there was evidence that on each occasion that a plainclothes officer attended for a massage one of the respondents offered to perform or attempted to perform acts of masturbation upon him. It would be open to a trier of fact to find that the masturbation was part and parcel of the body rub. A trier of fact could also find that these were lewd acts for payment for the sexual gratification of the customers and hence acts of prostitution.�

Are you still with me?

(continued...)
[/QUOTE

Forgive my ignorance, but what is a PM? Is that a Perry Mason? or is it a pulled muscle? or something else. And is the "or" prepositional or conjunctive? I am just trying to grasp the precise nature of your topic-which I think is a very good one so far as I can understand your acronyms.
 

Perry Mason

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Aug 20, 2001
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Re: Re: My considered opinion on the legality of HJ's and PM's...

Aircraft said:
Forgive my ignorance, but what is a PM?
Prime Minister
Paul Martin
Perry Mason
Private Message
Popular Mechanics
Past Master
Pay Master
Police Magistrate
Post Mortem
Post Meridian...
or,
Prostate Massage.

Take your pick! :D

Perry
 

Aircraft

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Well, I am still not completely clear; but from your menu I would guess that the most natural conflation would be the Prime Minister being given the appropriate form of a Prostate Massage.
If so, perhaps you should pluralize not only HJ's but also PM's.
 
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