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Toronto hospital network to require organ transplant patients to be fully vaccinated against COVID-19

Jenesis

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Everyone has the right to decide whether to donate organs or not, however having once decided to donate and then withdrawing consent because of the vaccine mandate, completely defies logic. Punish potential recipients because you disagree with the vaccine requirement? Protest some other way.
That is what these hospitals are doing. They are punishing people who disagree with their vaccine requirement. So they can do but I can’t? I’m suppose to support a segregating system? I would want my organs to go to all and will still keep my donation for science but I can’t support a system that is doing that. I just can’t.

I’m not making them suffer, the mandate is.
 

Robert Mugabe

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Nov 5, 2017
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Seems a little arbitrary to dictate terms to somebody who is offering to save your life. Kind of like I will only accept the antibiotics that will save my leg from being amputated if you accept Santa Clause as your true god and Street cars may not run on Tuesdays.
 

massman

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That is what these hospitals are doing. They are punishing people who disagree with their vaccine requirement. So they can do but I can’t? I’m suppose to support a segregating system? I would want my organs to go to all and will still keep my donation for science but I can’t support a system that is doing that. I just can’t.

I’m not making them suffer, the mandate is.
But the recipient didn’t make the mandate, but they pay the price?

(For the record, I support the vaccine mandate, there are several other health requirements prior to receiving organs, to ensure the maximum chance of success, no smoking, drug and alcohol addiction must be in remission, adequate social supports, financial resources to pay for meds etc. Vaccine is pretty minor overall).
 

Drakarys

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Apr 2, 2021
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But the recipient didn’t make the mandate, but they pay the price?

(For the record, I support the vaccine mandate, there are several other health requirements prior to receiving organs, to ensure the maximum chance of success, no smoking, drug and alcohol addiction must be in remission, adequate social supports, financial resources to pay for meds etc. Vaccine is pretty minor overall).
People donating their body is not a requirement, it's a GIFT.
You start bashing those people, calling them names, taking freedom away - you get a Fuck You instead of a gift. Seems quite warranted.
 

massman

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People donating their body is not a requirement, it's a GIFT.
You start bashing those people, calling them names, taking freedom away - you get a Fuck You instead of a gift. Seems quite warranted.
The response is illogical. You object to the vaccine requirement that is mandated by the institution, so you choose to punish the sick recipient who might live if they get your organs. Just makes no sense. You claim to side with the recipient whose “rights” are being violated, so in response you punish those same people. Just doesn’t make sense. People have the right to make illogical decisions sure, but they are still illogical
 

Jenesis

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The response is illogical. You object to the vaccine requirement that is mandated by the institution, so you choose to punish the sick recipient who might live if they get your organs. Just makes no sense. You claim to side with the recipient whose “rights” are being violated, so in response you punish those same people. Just doesn’t make sense. People have the right to make illogical decisions sure, but they are still illogical
They are punishing the sick unvaccinated recipient. That is illogical.
 

Drakarys

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The response is illogical. You object to the vaccine requirement that is mandated by the institution, so you choose to punish the sick recipient who might live if they get your organs. Just makes no sense. You claim to side with the recipient whose “rights” are being violated, so in response you punish those same people. Just doesn’t make sense. People have the right to make illogical decisions sure, but they are still illogical
Buddy, you have NO CLAIM to anyone's organs. People may donate if they wish.
If government mandates something that results in people withdrawing from the program, then go talk to the government.
 

massman

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They are punishing the sick unvaccinated recipient. That is illogical.
Even if that’s what you believe, your response is still without any basis in logic. You feel like you are sticking it to the transplant program who make the rules, but the cost is borne by the potential recipients.
 

Jenesis

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Even if that’s what you believe, your response is still without any basis in logic. You feel like you are sticking it to the transplant program who make the rules, but the cost is borne by the potential recipients.
Where did I say I’m trying to stick it to the program.

I said I can’t support a segregated program.

I wouldn’t donate to terrorist organizations either.

I am not trying to “stick” it to anyone. I will still want to be donating just to science only. That is the best I can do. I didn’t make it this way.

Yet you have not addressed the hospitals that are denying sick people an organ. You look at me negatively for it but not them.

And you want to talk about things that are illogical. LOL
 

massman

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Where did I say I’m trying to stick it to the program.

I said I can’t support a segregated program.

I wouldn’t donate to terrorist organizations either.

I am not trying to “stick” it to anyone. I will still want to be donating just to science only. That is the best I can do. I didn’t make it this way.

Yet you have not addressed the hospitals that are denying sick people an organ. You look at me negatively for it but not them.

And you want to talk about things that are illogical. LOL
Sorry if it comes across as me looking at you negatively, but as I said before, the decision to withdraw from an organ donor registry doesn’t make sense. People can decide not to donate for whatever reason they want, maybe it’s because the sky is grey today! They can do it!
Nor does encouraging others to withdraw their consent (actually, that, I do look at negatively)
Sick people get the vaccine, they get the organ (if otherwise eligible).
Lots of decisions on organ allocation are made on who will benefit the most/ will have the best chance of surviving with the transplanted organ intact. This involves encroaching on people’s “rights”.
You need a liver, but refuse to get treatment for your alcoholism and insist on exercising your right to drink a 26er a day, you don’t get a liver, and you die.
You need a heart or a lung, will die without it, but want to exercise your right to smoke? No heart or lung for you, and you die.
You need an organ to survive, but want to exercise your right to not attend appointments or follow the treatments prescribed by the doctor? You don’t get the organ and you die.
I don’t agree with denying unvaccinated all healthcare, but organ allocation is different. Not because of the massive cost to the system, but because there are more potential recipients than available organs. So when an organ fails, or a transplanted patient dies, someone on the wait list who might have benefitted from that organ also died. So the bar for ability to benefit from the treatment is set pretty high.
The other concern is yhe responsibility to other transplanted patients. You will be sharing a hospital ward and clinic waiting room with them, and vaccines work in people with transplants, but not as well, so a patient that gets covid, could spread it to others who might die from the infection, and another organ is lost that could have saved someone.
 

massman

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Buddy, you have NO CLAIM to anyone's organs. People may donate if they wish.
If government mandates something that results in people withdrawing from the program, then go talk to the government.
As I said, people can do whatever they want, it just makes no sense.
 

sp free

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May 31, 2003
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I’m spending the afternoon and evening with an adult family member and his children that received a heart when he was a child.

I’m spending the afternoon and evening with an otherwise healthy family member in her 40’s that is waiting for a kidney that will likely never come because of her rare blood condition. She is on dialysis and this is likely the final Thanksgiving her 3 kids and our extended family will get to spend with her.

Listen to yourself.

You are choosing, and seemingly promoting your decision to not ‘give the gift of life’ as a political statement against another perceived persecution against a choice you’ve decided to make.

Antivaxxers aren’t getting tissues and organs because they are VERY unlikely to survive the interventions needed to treat them if they were to have received the transplant and then contract COVID.

Not only do you not have a functional natural immune system after that kind of procedure and would therefore be among the most likely in society to require ICU interventions if one were to contract COVID, but your chances of encountering COVID skyrocket during the prolonged before during and after surgery hospital care a recipient typically requires.

This is well-known amongst the community of patients awaiting a transplant, or those who have received transplants which is why they were the highest priority for vaccination.

====

This isn’t persecution. It’s how medicine works when supply is below demand.

It says something to me that even in death you’re unwilling to help people.

Shame on you.
Shame on me for what?

You want to take my organs, but won’t give me one if I need it?

Fuck you.
 

Jenesis

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Sorry if it comes across as me looking at you negatively, but as I said before, the decision to withdraw from an organ donor registry doesn’t make sense. People can decide not to donate for whatever reason they want, maybe it’s because the sky is grey today! They can do it!
Nor does encouraging others to withdraw their consent (actually, that, I do look at negatively)
Sick people get the vaccine, they get the organ (if otherwise eligible).
Lots of decisions on organ allocation are made on who will benefit the most/ will have the best chance of surviving with the transplanted organ intact. This involves encroaching on people’s “rights”.
You need a liver, but refuse to get treatment for your alcoholism and insist on exercising your right to drink a 26er a day, you don’t get a liver, and you die.
You need a heart or a lung, will die without it, but want to exercise your right to smoke? No heart or lung for you, and you die.
You need an organ to survive, but want to exercise your right to not attend appointments or follow the treatments prescribed by the doctor? You don’t get the organ and you die.
I don’t agree with denying unvaccinated all healthcare, but organ allocation is different. Not because of the massive cost to the system, but because there are more potential recipients than available organs. So when an organ fails, or a transplanted patient dies, someone on the wait list who might have benefitted from that organ also died. So the bar for ability to benefit from the treatment is set pretty high.
The other concern is yhe responsibility to other transplanted patients. You will be sharing a hospital ward and clinic waiting room with them, and vaccines work in people with transplants, but not as well, so a patient that gets covid, could spread it to others who might die from the infection, and another organ is lost that could have saved someone.
This is forcing someone to put something in their body in order to be on the list. It is forcing a medical procedure on someone.

If you don’t see the difference between that and making sure a smoker is no longer smoking, then we will have to simply agree to disagree.
 

massman

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This is forcing someone to put something in their body in order to be on the list. It is forcing a medical procedure on someone.

If you don’t see the difference between that and making sure a smoker is no longer smoking, then we will have to simply agree to disagree.
You have to agree to a variety of medical things to improve and maintain your health in order to be considered for a transplant, some of them risky (angiograms, colonoscopy….). This is no different in my mind. If the team thinks you need an angiogram to make sure your heart is ok for the surgery, and you will not die of a heart attack in a year, you need to get it or you don’t get on the list.
I am strongly in favour of personal autonomy when it comes to healthcare. However this is a unique situation, where your use of a precious resource (organs) directly impacts others below you on the list, and therefore there is a responsibility to do everything to optimize the chance of success.
 

sp free

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You have to agree to a variety of medical things to improve and maintain your health in order to be considered for a transplant, some of them risky (angiograms, colonoscopy….). This is no different in my mind. If the team thinks you need an angiogram to make sure your heart is ok for the surgery, and you will not die of a heart attack in a year, you need to get it or you don’t get on the list.
I am strongly in favour of personal autonomy when it comes to healthcare. However this is a unique situation, where your use of a precious resource (organs) directly impacts others below you on the list, and therefore there is a responsibility to do everything to optimize the chance of success.
So you support informed consent…sometimes.

Got it.
😂
 

Jenesis

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You have to agree to a variety of medical things to improve and maintain your health in order to be considered for a transplant, some of them risky (angiograms, colonoscopy….). This is no different in my mind. If the team thinks you need an angiogram to make sure your heart is ok for the surgery, and you will not die of a heart attack in a year, you need to get it or you don’t get on the list.
I am strongly in favour of personal autonomy when it comes to healthcare. However this is a unique situation, where your use of a precious resource (organs) directly impacts others below you on the list, and therefore there is a responsibility to do everything to optimize the chance of success.
You think it is fine, I don’t. But it is my choice to remove my organ from the program for living Donorship. EOD.
 

Valcazar

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As I said, people can do whatever they want, it just makes no sense.
I think the argument is that if there is a boycott of people giving their organs, then the transplant centers will have to relax the criteria on who they give the organs to.
Of course, since the criteria are strict because there aren't enough organs for all the people, deciding to not donate organs means the criteria will be more strict and more centers will start making vaccination mandatory as a criteria since they will have to be more ruthless about their triage.
 

sp free

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I think the argument is that if there is a boycott of people giving their organs, then the transplant centers will have to relax the criteria on who they give the organs to.
Of course, since the criteria are strict because there aren't enough organs for all the people, deciding to not donate organs means the criteria will be more strict and more centers will start making vaccination mandatory as a criteria since they will have to be more ruthless about their triage.
Or they’ll say “wait a minute, we did something wrong here, we’re losing thousands of donors, let’s right that wrong.”

The vaccine does not work.
 
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