Taking Quebecois Separatism seriously

[Truncador]

Link: Majority of Quebecois want sovereignty

Ten years in this country never go by without some big crisis over national unity. I figure we're about due; this time, I envision a Conservative/Bloc Quebecois coalition falling apart after the Conservatives, egged on by the Mulroneyists, make Quebec some promises it can't keep, to be followed be another referendum.

There was a memorable televised image from the time of the last one ten years back. A pro-Canadian unity demonstrator, not himself from Quebec, was walking around downtown Montreal with a big "My Canada includes Quebec" sandwich-board. Two French guys, greaser-types, walk by. "I love you guys", says the sign-bearer. "Yeah, but me, I don't love you", replied one of the greasers in accented English. On the armsleeve of his leather jacket was a big fleur-de-lys patch.

I think this image encapsulates an important political reality in this country, namely that English Canadians, befuddled by political correctness as they are, have a hard time recognizing the simple fact that, however well Anglo's and Franco's may get along as individuals, as groups they are hereditary enemies of one another and aren't ever going to find unity in some sort of warm and fuzzy group hug. As one Quebecois nationalist astutely observed during the Constitutional crisis of 1990, French and English in Confederation are like two scorpions in a bottle.

The next time Confederation starts to unravel, why can't everyone involved take these facts seriously and embark on a bi-national dialogue on how to end what's been a bad marriage as painlessly and as amicably as possible ? Any ideas as to how things would best proceed with respect to such nuts and bolts as:

-time-frame

-shared arrangements and joint ventures that would be in the interest of both parties: currency, customs union, maintenance of a common front or flag of convenience for the purpose of trade deals with the USA (e.g. to stop the latter from trying to re-open or re-negotiate the existing treaties to its advantage), etc.

Or would it be better to keep Confederation, but gut the powers of the Federal government to a libertarian minimum (criminal justice, national defense), devolving all the other powers onto the various Provinces ?

 

[LifeSucks]

Or would it be better to keep Confederation, but gut the powers of the Federal government to a libertarian minimum (criminal justice, national defense), devolving all the other powers onto the various Provinces ?

What national defense? I thought we already outsourced that to Americans long ago.

 

[Svend]

Just hope that Quebec realizes that if Canada is divisible, then so is their province.
Will they allow Montreal a vote on whether they want to join the rest of Canada?
How about the Crees in northern Quebec, will they be allowed to hold a referendum? Imagine Quebec losing James Bay hydro!

 

[red]

i thought they separated years ago already. Let them go.

 

[onthebottom]

What national defense? I thought we already outsourced that to Americans long ago.

And you're late on your payments.

OTB

 

[Truncador]

I doubt Ottawa would seriously go to bat for the linguistic minorities in Quebec, seeing as how in the past at least one official languages commissioner (Goldbloom, I think his name was) actually got formally censured by Parliament for suggesting that Anglo-Quebecois rights guaranteed by the Official Languages Act weren't being respected.

It would be up to Quebec to come to its senses and realize that they would have to do something to forestall a mass exodus of non-Francophones from the province following secession. Whether or not the PQ is rational enough is an open question; a few years ago, a PQ minister complained with indignation that too many Anglos were leaving Quebec- in a speech where she also recommended restricting access to English-language universities and things like that...

With respect to the Native groups, the central question would come to down to whether or not Quebec would by itself be able to match the dumptrucks full of money the various bands get from the Feds under current arrangements.

 

[onthebottom]

Quit waiting for them to leave and throw the frogs out already. You're only setting yourself up to be bribed. Let me guess, Quebec is a net importer of Federal Funds.....

OTB

 

[red]

lets settle all the native land claims by giving them Quebec

 

[Truncador]

If only it were that simple...

Quit waiting for them to leave and throw the frogs out already.

Political elites tend to make a fetish out of "national unity", since having Quebec around is convenient to their ends on a number of fronts. This means that the subject can't even be raised without being met with immediate accusations of "racism"

 

[onthebottom]

Political elites tend to make a fetish out of "national unity", since having Quebec around is convenient to their ends on a number of fronts. This means that the subject can't even be raised without being met with immediate accusations of "racism"

I would imagine they pull you left on many issues.....

OTB

 

[papasmerf]

Let them go sounds like Ontario is the best of the country and can make it all good

 

[Svend]

Canada was founded on two equal regions but due to expansion Quebec is now 20% of the population, has 25% of the representation yet has most of the influence.
And they still feel provocation and resentment?
No wonder there are many in the rest of Canada who are throwing up their hands. If there is going to be yet another neverendum, you won't see as many travelling to Montreal to beg them to stay.

 

[LifeSucks]

And you're late on your payments.

OTB

I know. And we love it.

 

[Truncador]

This has nothing to do with Political elites, it`s the basic foundation of the country [...] Like many other of your posts, you show an ignorance of Canadian political structure and history.

Funny, even people who aren`t from Canada are able to quickly guess that the reason Canadian political and intellectual elites love Quebec so much (or, more accurately, claim they do) is because Quebec is a mighty pillar of support for just about every Leftist and anti-American policy they themselves happen to favour. As long as we`re bringing history into it, this was already true right from the beginning, when (English) Royalists and (French) Catholics at the time of the American revolution realized that they hated individual liberty, democracy, and modernity more than they hated each other.

Now as for your idiotic use of the word racism - white people are a race, orientals are a race - French people are not. The proper word here would be bigot.

Not that it really matters, but as long as I`m being called an idiot: A bigot is someone who`s against religious freedom; racism refers to the belief that a given set of people are inherently inferior, degenerated, or contaminating. Racism is not colour-dependent; the Jews and the Irish, among others, have been the object of racist sentiment, and in Canada both French and English alike have expressed racist beliefs about one another (link to example).

if they are so elite you would think they would know the correct word.

They know this word is very effective for intimidating opponents in a country where promoting hate is a Federal offense...

 

[wollensak]

Loony Right

[ The next time Confederation starts to unravel, why can't everyone involved take these facts seriously and embark on a bi-national dialogue on how to end what's been a bad marriage as painlessly and as amicably as possible ?
Or would it be better to keep Confederation, but gut the powers of the Federal government to a libertarian minimum (criminal justice, national defense), devolving all the other powers onto the various Provinces ?

The collected wisdom of the board is we should give up on our country, because someone took a poll, and Quebeckers favour sovereignty???

I hope you guys are not holding any important positions anywhere, or even operating heavy machinery, because your judgement is severely impaired.

Opinions change from day to day. Polls are not an accurate indicator of what people will actually do. They are an opportunity to vent emotion.

If, as you suggest, Quebeckers are getting a "free ride", why are they annoyed? Perhaps the answer is obvious. "Federalist" parties in Quebec
have engaged in illegal activities that have benefitted a small number of insiders. The PQ and the Bloc have tended to be less corrupt, and more efficient as well.

Canada's problem is the first-past-the-post electoral system that allows
whichever party controls Ontario and Quebec to rule the entire country.
This situation is ripe for corruption.

Proportional representation would bring more democracy and less corruption.

Interestingly, only the NDP has any interest in reforming the sytem.

 

[wollensak]

Tell me you're kidding....

I read the article - crack filler at best.

Many European countries are dealing with far more explosive separatist
situations than we are. "Failed state" is a phrase used in US media to indicate a country that should be invaded by the US. Apparently Ann Coulter appears on the cover of the latest Time magazine and makes some threatening noises about Canada.

Sounds like lap-dog yellow journalism, par for the course.

 

[impala77]

well lets see, the washington times commentary made me laugh. I particularly like the part that describes a fragmented canada as a whole bunch of new economic additions to the united states. Quebec on its own, atlantic canada and Alberta extending the united states boarders, BC a seperate state and poor ontario floundering around in desperation with whoever remains, while the UK can have newfoundland, Gimme a break. That is some very self serving analysis.

I don't think quebec ever will leave confederation, but on the odd chance that they do, i'm sure before the country would fall to hell and a hand basket there might actually be negotiations btw the remaining provinces to establish a new deal that does more to address the inequities of our current constitution.

 

[LifeSucks]

well lets see, the washington times commentary made me laugh. I particularly like the part that describes a fragmented canada as a whole bunch of new economic additions to the united states. Quebec on its own, atlantic canada and Alberta extending the united states boarders, BC a seperate state and poor ontario floundering around in desperation with whoever remains, while the UK can have newfoundland, Gimme a break. That is some very self serving analysis.

You can't expect much from anyone who writes for the Moonies' paper.

 

[red]

And you're late on your payments.

OTB

we paid using our kmart credit cards

 

[Truncador]

Opinions change from day to day. Polls are not an accurate indicator of what people will actually do. They are an opportunity to vent emotion.

It goes a bit deeper than the average public opinion poll. There have been two provincial referendums on this subject in 25 years. Quebecers now vote for a separatist party in Federal elections and have usually voted for one in Provincial elections since the 1970s. The only terrorist group of any substance in North American history was a Quebec separatist group. I could continue. The results of a poll on this subject have to be taken a lot more seriously than the average opinion poll, which deals with subjects that mass publics don't really know or care a whole lot about.

Canada's problem is the first-past-the-post electoral system that allows whichever party controls Ontario and Quebec to rule the entire country...Proportional representation would bring more democracy and less corruption.

And to the extent that it would undermine Quebec's influence, it just isn't going to happen as long as Quebec is in Confederation. Still find it unreasonable to seriously consider separation ?