recent safe sex info (kissing/bbbj)- from sasha's lovebites/eye weekly column

J

Jay_toronto

HIV - The macho virus!

I was beginning to take this thread seriously, then someone threw Rand into the discussion and all credibility went out the window.

From the data I've read more women are becoming HIV+ than men. That's one of the reasons that it's having such a devastating effect in places such as Africa and SE Asia. It also doesn't help that you Rand types won't allow affordable drug inhibitors to developing countries. Why shrink the profit margin slowing down the AIDS death machine?
 

fflowley

New member
Re: Bigmoe69er: Think Like a Scientist

Originally posted by Wired For Sound ]

I'm not saying I agree completely with every conclusion but the questions raised are good ones. E.g. Why has the HIV virus never been issolated?


Wired

Where did you get this from? It is, without a doubt, completely false.

The HIV virus has not only been isolated, but the sequence and function of every gene and protein in the virus is definitively known.


flooey!
 
Aug 18, 2001
233
0
0
54
Re: Re: Bigmoe69er: Think Like a Scientist

fflowley said:
Originally posted by Wired For Sound ]

I'm not saying I agree completely with every conclusion but the questions raised are good ones. E.g. Why has the HIV virus never been issolated?


Wired

Where did you get this from? It is, without a doubt, completely false.

The HIV virus has not only been isolated, but the sequence and function of every gene and protein in the virus is definitively known.


flooey!
This was an error of memory on my part and I apologize. I was thinking of the story of the HIV-AIDS correlation vs causation link that I first read about by Kary B Mullis (Mullis won the 1993 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for his invention of the polymerase chain reaction technique for detecting DNA. This is the technique used to search for fragments of HIV in AIDS patients.) years ago. And the link to what I first read is provided here. What I should have said was the causal link from HIV to AIDS -- according to some highly specialize scientists in the field -- has never been established. It's an interesting and entertaining read:

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/kmdancing.htm
 

gala

New member
Sep 9, 2002
318
0
0
Re: Here are some percentages taken From CDC website

Wired For Sound said:
Let's try some newer numbers, and numbers from Canada rather than from the US, it's more relevant here:

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hppb/hiv_aids/can_strat/pdf/pdf/monitoring/Tech 2-english.pdf

In canada MSM was 37.2% in 1999, followed by IDU at 28.5%, and heterosexual transmission was 28.5%.

Your numbers were flawed because they counted the "cumulative" AIDS cases, which is slanted heavily towards MSM because that's where the disease first entered the population. Heteros have caught up in the rate of new infections, but, because of the history, still lag in the total number of cases.

Furthermore you're dead wrong if you think hobbyists are not high risk for AIDS. Most "heterosexuals" have only a few sex partners during their entire life. Those who have more than five or six partners have a substantially higher risk of contracting AIDS than the rest of the population.
 
Last edited:

gala

New member
Sep 9, 2002
318
0
0
another one

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/pphb-dgspsp/publicat/epiu-aepi/hiv-vih/oral_e.html

This documents many cases of people being infected through unprotected oral sex, including a report of a man who contracted HIV after getting a BBBJ from an SP, though most of the documented cases are men being infected by providing oral sex to another man.

So it's possible. How likely it is to happen to you--who knows, but it DOES happen.

Here's an interesting quote from the article:

* A 1993 study of female sex trade workers found that crack users who inconsistently used condoms when performing oral sex on their clients were more likely to be infected with HIV than were those who consistently used condoms when performing fellatio.
The significance of "crack users" is that crack use causes mouth and throat sores that open a vector for HIV to transfer in either direction.
 
Last edited:
Aug 18, 2001
233
0
0
54
Dogma and Science

Your last point first. I don't know where you get that heterosexuals only have a few sex partners during their entire life. Must be a thought pulled out of thin air. Just like most of what you are saying here.

This was taken from Health Canada's website:
"... of the 17,810 cumulative AIDS cases in adults reported up to
December 31, 2001 to the Centre for Infectious Disease Prevention and Control
(CIDPC), 1,403 (7.8%) were among women. The proportion of AIDS cases among
women (relative to all reported AIDS cases in adults for which gender and age are
known) has increased over time, from 5.6% before 1992 to 8.3% in 1995 and
peaking at 16.4% in 1999. In 2001, the proportion of AIDS cases among women
has remained at 16%. "

Consider the low number of women. If women are only 1,403, that means men are 16,407 cases; hardly an epidemic for women in Canada. Yet, Health Canada makes it into a big thing. They follow a politically correct path because they have a vested interest in Creating the view that we are all at equal risk for Aids. Not true. In WHAT CAUSES AIDS? It's An Open Question
By Charles A. Thomas Jr., Kary B. Mullis, & Phillip E. Johnson (link provided in an earlier post) make the following observation:

"...predictions based on the HIV theory have failed spectacularly. AIDS in the United States and Europe has not spread through the general population. Rather, it remains almost entirely confined to the original risk groups, mainly sexually promiscuous gay men and drug abusers. The number of HIV-infected Americans has remained constant for years instead of increasing rapidly as predicted, which suggests that HIV is an old virus that has been with us for centuries without causing an epidemic."

And Fumento explains the patern of epidemics such as Aids:

Now, the nature of an epidemic such as AIDS – that is, an epidemic based on behavior – is that the virus will pick off the "easy" targets first. (With AIDS, the easiest targets were men who engage in receptive anal intercourse with numerous other men, who also engage in receptive anal intercourse with numerous other men, since this activity has been shown to be by far the most conducive to transmitting the virus.) An epidemic will progress ever more slowly as fewer and fewer easy targets remain. That is, the caseload may increase from month to month, but the rate at which it increases is ever lower. This is a general rule
for epidemics. http://www.fumento.com/shrinking.html

And he takes apart the propaganda from CDC tha -- like Health Canada -- have a financial vested interest in keeping this disease hyped:

And here’s some good news that anyone can access in the just-released CDC HIV/AIDS annual report (available at: http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/stats/hasr1202.htm), but that nobody in the media has bothered to tell you:

"Forget the heterosexual AIDS epidemic. The category of those who so much as claim to have gotten the disease this way comprises over 90 percent of the population but only 11 percent of AIDS cases. In 1993, 9,570 such cases were reported. By 1999 it was down to 7,139 and last year it fell further, to 6,530.... But the CDC’s numbers show reported female HIV infections attributed to heterosexual contact declined slightly last year, from 2,506 to 2,448. Female AIDS cases attributed to heterosexual contact declined from 4,281 to 3,981, down in turn from 6,253 in 1993. When a decline is the “most rapid” area of growth, how bad can things be?"

Gala, we have to be careful of what Bacon referred to as " Idols of the Theater": ideas that have made it into our consciousness from various dogmatic systems of thought which create fictitious worlds. Science is about questioning so-called established fact. Consider Environmentalism: Many don't question the so-called fact that Humans are destroying the planet. They think it's self evident and laugh at those they consider ignorant fools who think otherwise. Then enter: Lomborg's "The Skeptical Environmentalist" and the works of Julian Simon before him. There are many others of course. Same goes for HIV-AIDS controversy. Health Canada says HIV causes Aids. But what of Mullis et al who question the cause and have some good arguments? Or Dr. Thomas Dorman's point that: "The equal distribution between men and women in Africa versus the predominance of male homosexuals in America sits poorly with the concept of single disease". And even the percentages you decided to give to buttress your argument, when converted to numbers; and when we consider how epidemics progress -- we see that you have nothing at all.
 

gala

New member
Sep 9, 2002
318
0
0
Wired: I posted the health canada reports for their factual information, not for their opinion. The facts are:

(1) There are numerous documented cases of HIV transmission through oral sex. I provided you with a reference since you had asked for one.

(2) New HIV cases are roughly 1/3 gay men, 1/3 drug uers, and 1/3 heterosexuals. You are correct that the gay population is 1/10th the size of the heterosexual population, so the risk that the average heterosexual faces should be 1/10th the risk that the average gay male faces.

I hope we can agree so far?

Now "heterosexual" is a big population, and it includes all sorts of people. Most of them have somewhere between five and ten sex partners during their lives: a few girlfriends when they're young, and then maybe a few wives later, plus perhaps an affair or two.

Some people have a lot more sex than others--some people have lots of girlfriends when they're single, others cheat regularly on their wives, still others are swingers whose wives go along with it, etc.

All that I'm suggesting is that the risk for people who have sex with a lot of different people is NOT THE SAME as the risk for the "average heterosexual population".

Perhaps we can dig up some statistics relating the risk of HIV infection to the average number of sex partners that a person has, and whether they engage in oral, vaginal, or anal sex.

I'm willing to bet that 100% of the reason why gay men have such a high risk of HIV infection is that gay men have sex with lots of different people and they have anal sex with those people.

I'm willing to bet that a heterosexual who has sex with lots of different people, including anal sex, has a similar risk of getting HIV.

Yes, gay men have a much higher risk than everybody else. But isn't that because of their behavior? Doesn't anybody else who behaves the same way face a similar risk?
 
Aug 18, 2001
233
0
0
54
Mountains, Mole Hills, and Probability

gala said:
Wired: I posted the health canada reports for their factual information, not for their opinion. The facts are:

(1) There are numerous documented cases of HIV transmission through oral sex. I provided you with a reference since you had asked for one.

(2) New HIV cases are roughly 1/3 gay men, 1/3 drug uers, and 1/3 heterosexuals. You are correct that the gay population is 1/10th the size of the heterosexual population, so the risk that the average heterosexual faces should be 1/10th the risk that the average gay male faces.

I hope we can agree so far?

In the way you have presented it, unfortunately no. I don't automatically believe anything a Government agency tells me. I question it. I question everything -- but I really scrutinize what the Government claims is the "truth". Unfortunately, you seem to automatically accept their data as factual BECAUSE it's a GOVERNMENT AGENCY. Have you checked their sources? Are they Government financed? Who profits when Aids is hyped beyond it's actual health threat? Wouldn't some Aids researchers be out of a Job? And Government loves to keep things going. Remember the temporary income tax? Yeah, nuff said.

Here are a few more things to think about. What do you make of the last point raised by Fumento? How does that alter your claim that Aids is still an epidemic for Heterosexuals? The 1/3 (that's if it's true) new heterosexual aids cases are really statistically insignificant if we correlate that number with other diseases -- or even accidental deaths. If that doesn't change your mind, then, do you eat? Because eating food could kill you.

This disease has discriminated. And yes, I agree with your far more rational observation that it probably has had something to do with the behaviour of homosexuals. But similar behaviour in Heterosexuals does NOT mean the same level of risk even though anal sex is high risk for diseases. So the ratio argument would therefore be a red herring.

As for HIV transmission through oral sex: I'm very skeptical of these claims. The mouth isn't a good method for transmission. I'm willing to grant that it's possible though. But, so is being struck by a car while J walking. This is a good analogy. I'm sure we all J walk at times -- but use our discretion. It's not prudent to cross when the car is at a certain point, etc. Now, same goes for oral sex. True you can't check the mouth (or have the SP, in the case of TERB say AHHH.) of every contact . Yet you can still be wise and see a SP that has great personal hygiene and is sane. If you adhere to this principle you still may error; but just like in the J walking you could misjudge the situation, e.g. the driver could be a psychopath and wants to kill you so he speeds up, etc.

But play safe as much as possible everyone. A STD (of any kind) isn't cool. Just because Aids isn't a threat isn't an excuse to loose the condom completely. But dare to question, that's all I ask you Terbites to consider.
 

Theshortstack

New member
Oct 21, 2002
23
0
0
65
Chicago - USA
Fascinating Discussion

This was very very interesting to read.

Hmmmm.

So, is the bottom line that, risky behaviour is risky? Would it follow that engaging in even riskier behaviour is even riskier?

And, that makes me wonder. If you engage in riskier behaviour with others who also behave in risky, or riskier, behaviour wouldn't that make it even riskier? (perhaps we should call this riskiest?)

If you drive a lot, you may be at higher risk for auto accidents. Perhaps a seat belt would lower the risk of actually being seriously hurt? If you fly a lot, you might be at a higher risk of an airplane accident. Perhaps the seatbelt in this case would lower your risk of actually being seriously hurt? I wonder how they compare? In one case the risk of the collision is probably much higher and yet the seat belt probably reduces the risk of serious injury significantly. In the other case the risk of collision is probably much lower, but the seat belt probably reduces the risk of serious injury to a lesser extent.
Jay walking likely has a risk of injury too. I'd guess that, as was mentioned earlier, the risk can be reduced by diligently looking for traffic.
Of them all, which is safer? I don't know. Which will I stop doing? None. I'll continue to do them all and I'll throw in a glass of wine or champagne every once in a while.

I suppose we all have our tolerance for risk and have to live with the risks we take. I think being informed is a good thing. I think this thread was a good thing.

Oh, and I've always said, "give me enough time, and I'll torture these numbers till I get the story I want"

PS - I present no data or evidence to support any of my notions, speculations, or opinions!
 

KBear

Supporting Member
Aug 17, 2001
4,169
1
38
west end
www.gtagirls.com
Have they found the virus that causes AIDS yet. All the HIV tests, and the conclusions discussed here, are only considering the presents of certain antibodies in the blood, and there are many reasons why these antibodies may be present. All dogs test positive for AIDS, why is that. http://www.aliveandwell.org/index.php?page=reasons

http://www.duesberg.com/
http://www.virusmyth.net/
http://aidsmyth.addr.com/enteraidsmyth.htm
http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/perthgroup/
http://healtoronto.com/
http://www.aliveandwell.org
http://www.rocktheboat2001.com/
 
Last edited:

KBear

Supporting Member
Aug 17, 2001
4,169
1
38
west end
www.gtagirls.com
Magic Johnson got better...

Friday, September 20, 2002 http://www.news-journalonline.com/2002/Sep/20/SPT3.htm

Magic Johnson reports he's free of AIDS symptoms
News-Journal wire services

SPRINGFIELD, Mass. -- Magic Johnson's latest checkup confirmed that he is free of AIDS symptoms, 11 years after he first tested positive for HIV.

The NBA star, who will be inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame next week, said Wednesday in a conference call that his doctor told him last week that he's still healthy.
 

gala

New member
Sep 9, 2002
318
0
0
Re: Mountains, Mole Hills, and Probability

Wired For Sound said:

I don't automatically believe anything a Government agency tells me. I question it. I question everything -- but I really scrutinize what the Government claims is the "truth". Unfortunately, you seem to automatically accept their data as factual BECAUSE it's a GOVERNMENT AGENCY.
Oh come on. When it suited you, you were willing to quote the CDC. Shall I go and get the same data from the CDC? I'm sure they had it. I picked Health Canada because we're Canadians.

Here are a few more things to think about. What do you make of the last point raised by Fumento? How does that alter your claim that Aids is still an epidemic for Heterosexuals?
I never claimed AIDS was an epidemic among heterosexuals or anybody else. If you want my view, my view is that AIDS would have been an epidemic in Western nations but that it isn't precisely because we mostly use condoms now and that stopped it.

AIDS is an epidemic in every population that has given it a vector of transmission: drug users in Western countries, developing countries which don't check blood donations for HIV, nations where unprotected anal sex is common, etc.

It was an epidemic among homosexuals but the infection rate has been dropping in that community for ten years, concurrent with increased use of condoms. Apparently condom use has fallen off in the past two or three years and, surprise, the infection rate picked up again.

But similar behaviour in Heterosexuals does NOT mean the same level of risk even though anal sex is high risk for diseases.
Yes and no.

In one technical sense you are correct: Since the disease has been spreading among high risk heterosexuals for fewer years your odds of encountering an infected person are less. But if you do encounter such a person your odds of picking up the disease are the same for the same behavior. But, if heterosexuals all thought the way you do that will change fairly quickly. Fortunately most people are smarter than that, and use condoms, and that stops the spread of the disease.

It's like getting a flu shot--if you don't get the flu shot but everyone else around you does then you won't get the flu either because the flu has no way to get to you. But if everyone thought like that and nobody got the flu shot, then the flu would have a field day.

As for HIV transmission through oral sex: I'm very skeptical of these claims. The mouth isn't a good method for transmission.
Neither is the anus. But an anus with with minor cuts or irritated membrane is an excellent method of transmission. Similarly, a mouth with sores, burns, or cuts provides a good two-way street for the virus as well.

Some studies suggest that the mouth is actually provides the virus with a BETTER means of transmission than the anus does. The reason why anal sex is such a problem is not just that it's anal, but that it tends to damage the anus in a way that opens up opportunities for infection in an otherwise hostile environment.

Right now heterosexuals in Canada (but not in all countries) have a low risk of getting HIV, and I think that's pretty much because we all got so scared of the disease BEFORE it reached us that we took steps (like using condoms regularly) that prevented the virus from making real progress in our community.
 
Last edited:
Ashley Madison
Toronto Escorts