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Doug Ford government spent $231M to scrap green energy projects

bver_hunter

Well-known member
Nov 5, 2005
27,331
5,556
113
This is Drug ford in action:

PCs had said cancelling wind turbine project in Prince Edward County would not cost taxpayers:
Provincial documents show the Ford government spent more than $230 million to cancel renewable energy projects that included a partially-built wind farm in a cabinet minister's riding.

The spending was revealed Tuesday in question period by the opposition NDP, who accused the Ford government of throwing away money on scrapping energy projects as the Liberal government did earlier in the decade.

The province's public accounts for 2018-19 show spending of $231 million by the Ministry of Energy on unexplained "other transactions."

Inquiries by an NDP researcher uncovered that these "other transactions" were "to fulfil a government commitment to wind down renewable energy contracts" including the White Pines wind farm in Prince Edward County.

Premier Doug Ford promised that electricity ratepayers would not be on the hook for scrapping the wind farm, which was one of the first acts of his government after taking power in June 2018.

Bill Walker, the associate minister of energy, pointed to previous Liberal governments, whose moves to cancel gas plants ended up costing upwards of $1 billion, according to the province's auditor general. (CBC)
"Wasting $231 million to cancel hydro contracts is the sort of thing the previous Liberal government did during the gas plant scandal," NDP energy critic Peter Tabuns said on Tuesday.

The associate minister of energy, Bill Walker, said the province didn't need the power from the White Pines project but didn't deny the cost of the cancellation.

"This municipality was an unwilling host from day one. They did not want the turbines. We did the right thing," said Walker in question period.

Walker pointed to actions of the previous Liberal governments, whose moves to cancel gas plants in Mississauga and Oakville ended up costing upwards of $1 billion, according to the province's auditor general.

"I'll take fair criticism for decisions that were made when we were in government," John Fraser, the Liberal interim leader, said Tuesday at Queen's Park. "But I also believe that this government's going down the wrong path with energy and electricity, and tearing up these contracts was the absolute wrong thing to do."

The White Pines wind farm is in the riding of Todd Smith, the PC MPP for Bay of Quinte and the government's minister of children, community and social services.

A crane has begun dismantling one of the four turbines built in Prince Edward County as part of the White Pines wind power project, scrapped by the Doug Ford government (Bill White/Submitted)
"This is a project that residents of Prince Edward County had been fighting against since it was proposed," Smith told reporters Tuesday.

Four out of the nine turbines approved for the project were built in 2018. After the election, the new government put a stop-work order on construction. Crews are currently working to dismantle those four turbines.

"For this government to rip up contracts and literally rip wind turbines out of the ground is a huge waste of money and makes absolutely no sense," said Green party Leader Mike Schreiner.

The NDP researcher had to resort to a roundabout way of confirming that the $230 million listed on the 2018-19 books was spent cancelling energy projects. When government officials did not reply to his queries about the "other transactions," he asked legislative library staff to find out.

"Costs associated with the wind down and subsequent termination of renewable energy contracts (including the costs associated with the termination of the White Pines Wind project) are not anticipated to exceed $231 million," a ministry official said in an email to the library staffer.

"Total compensation for the termination of the White Pines Wind project is within the above amount and is still to be finalized, as there are a number of activities, such as decommissioning, that need to take place."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...wind-turbines-cancelled-230-million-1.5364815
 

Charlemagne

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2017
15,451
2,483
113
This is Drug ford in action:

PCs had said cancelling wind turbine project in Prince Edward County would not cost taxpayers:
Provincial documents show the Ford government spent more than $230 million to cancel renewable energy projects that included a partially-built wind farm in a cabinet minister's riding.

The spending was revealed Tuesday in question period by the opposition NDP, who accused the Ford government of throwing away money on scrapping energy projects as the Liberal government did earlier in the decade.

The province's public accounts for 2018-19 show spending of $231 million by the Ministry of Energy on unexplained "other transactions."

Inquiries by an NDP researcher uncovered that these "other transactions" were "to fulfil a government commitment to wind down renewable energy contracts" including the White Pines wind farm in Prince Edward County.

Premier Doug Ford promised that electricity ratepayers would not be on the hook for scrapping the wind farm, which was one of the first acts of his government after taking power in June 2018.

Bill Walker, the associate minister of energy, pointed to previous Liberal governments, whose moves to cancel gas plants ended up costing upwards of $1 billion, according to the province's auditor general. (CBC)
"Wasting $231 million to cancel hydro contracts is the sort of thing the previous Liberal government did during the gas plant scandal," NDP energy critic Peter Tabuns said on Tuesday.

The associate minister of energy, Bill Walker, said the province didn't need the power from the White Pines project but didn't deny the cost of the cancellation.

"This municipality was an unwilling host from day one. They did not want the turbines. We did the right thing," said Walker in question period.

Walker pointed to actions of the previous Liberal governments, whose moves to cancel gas plants in Mississauga and Oakville ended up costing upwards of $1 billion, according to the province's auditor general.

"I'll take fair criticism for decisions that were made when we were in government," John Fraser, the Liberal interim leader, said Tuesday at Queen's Park. "But I also believe that this government's going down the wrong path with energy and electricity, and tearing up these contracts was the absolute wrong thing to do."

The White Pines wind farm is in the riding of Todd Smith, the PC MPP for Bay of Quinte and the government's minister of children, community and social services.

A crane has begun dismantling one of the four turbines built in Prince Edward County as part of the White Pines wind power project, scrapped by the Doug Ford government (Bill White/Submitted)
"This is a project that residents of Prince Edward County had been fighting against since it was proposed," Smith told reporters Tuesday.

Four out of the nine turbines approved for the project were built in 2018. After the election, the new government put a stop-work order on construction. Crews are currently working to dismantle those four turbines.

"For this government to rip up contracts and literally rip wind turbines out of the ground is a huge waste of money and makes absolutely no sense," said Green party Leader Mike Schreiner.

The NDP researcher had to resort to a roundabout way of confirming that the $230 million listed on the 2018-19 books was spent cancelling energy projects. When government officials did not reply to his queries about the "other transactions," he asked legislative library staff to find out.

"Costs associated with the wind down and subsequent termination of renewable energy contracts (including the costs associated with the termination of the White Pines Wind project) are not anticipated to exceed $231 million," a ministry official said in an email to the library staffer.

"Total compensation for the termination of the White Pines Wind project is within the above amount and is still to be finalized, as there are a number of activities, such as decommissioning, that need to take place."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...wind-turbines-cancelled-230-million-1.5364815
I can't believe we got this fat dumb former junkie with shit for brains as a premier. This guy is spending more money to take us backwards, yet he's the fiscally responsible one. What a joke.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
79,740
17,568
113
I can't believe we got this fat dumb former junkie with shit for brains as a premier. This guy is spending more money to take us backwards, yet he's the fiscally responsible one. What a joke.
That puts him up with McGuinty for his gas plant cancellation.
Probably he's already topped that total with his idiotic moves.
 

Dutch Oven

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2019
6,804
2,264
113
That puts him up with McGuinty for his gas plant cancellation.
Probably he's already topped that total with his idiotic moves.
McGuinty cancelled a cost effective gas plant to buy votes in a tight riding.

Ford cancelled cost inefficient beta energy production technology that would burden taxpayers with additional costs for the next 30 years.
 

Insidious Von

My head is my home
Sep 12, 2007
38,089
6,423
113
Ford cancelled cost inefficient beta energy production technology that would burden taxpayers with additional costs for the next 30 years.
Propaganda, Dutch Oven, strictly propaganda.

Green energy is cheaper than nuclear and it's becoming cheaper by the month. Nuclear power plants are at capacity, more cooling pools need to be built to keep them running...the costs could be in the billions over 30 years. Taxpayers will love it! I was hoping Premiere Ford wouldn't do this, electrical costs will rise to keep fuel rods cool and turbines clean. Water pollution is on the rise again.

Dutch Oven don't complain when your electrical rates go up.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2019/05/29/renewable-energy-costs-tumble/#522b18b0e8ce
 

Dutch Oven

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2019
6,804
2,264
113
Propaganda, Dutch Oven, strictly propaganda.

Green energy is cheaper than nuclear and it's becoming cheaper by the month. Nuclear power plants are at capacity, more cooling pools need to be built to keep them running...the costs could be in the billions over 30 years. Taxpayers will love it! I was hoping Premiere Ford wouldn't do this, electrical costs will rise to keep fuel rods cool and turbines clean. Water pollution is on the rise again.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2019/05/29/renewable-energy-costs-tumble/#522b18b0e8ce
Without getting into your cost analysis of nuclear, I take it you agree that the cost per kilowatt, inclusive of infrastructure costs, of gas turbine generation is far lower than any current "green technology"? Same for hydro-electric generation?
 

Insidious Von

My head is my home
Sep 12, 2007
38,089
6,423
113
Without getting into your cost analysis of nuclear, I take it you agree that the cost per kilowatt, inclusive of infrastructure costs, of gas turbine generation is far lower than any current "green technology"? Same for hydro-electric generation?
I don't agree, green energy is front loaded, it becomes cheaper over time with maintenance costs relatively low. Natural gas is still a fossil fuel, yes it is cheaper per kilowatt at this time but for how long? Green energy is closing the gap on natural gas as advancements in technology come on line.

Sure Wynne was rash in transferring the cost to consumers, McLiar passed the buck.

https://www.livescience.com/52715-natural-gas-not-as-clean-as-people-think.html
 

Dutch Oven

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2019
6,804
2,264
113
I don't agree, green energy is front loaded, it becomes cheaper over time with maintenance costs relatively low. Natural gas is still a fossil fuel, yes it is cheaper per kilowatt at this time but for how long? Green energy is closing the gap on natural gas as advancements in technology come on line.
Successful technologies become more cost efficient over time (e.g. personal computers). Unsuccessful technologies do not. Unsuccessful technologies are simply abandoned. I think that it is far from demonstrated that ANY of the existing green technologies can be developed to the point of efficiencies that rival gas and/or hydro today. I could make the case for nuclear as well, but it's far more complicated, and not worth the dive in an internet post. The prudent course is to use the most efficient technology as much as you can, so long as it is the most efficient, while developing its superior successor.

The green energy initiative was like tearing up your ticket on the runaway favorite at the horse track to bet it all on some claimer that has lost all its races to date. Sure, one of those claimers might turn out to be a winner, but why would you bet everything on which one when you could simply wait and see?

Wind, solar and geothermal are technologies that are not ready for prime time yet. It's not time to make massive investments in any of them.
 

bver_hunter

Well-known member
Nov 5, 2005
27,331
5,556
113
Successful technologies become more cost efficient over time (e.g. personal computers). Unsuccessful technologies do not. Unsuccessful technologies are simply abandoned. I think that it is far from demonstrated that ANY of the existing green technologies can be developed to the point of efficiencies that rival gas and/or hydro today. I could make the case for nuclear as well, but it's far more complicated, and not worth the dive in an internet post. The prudent course is to use the most efficient technology as much as you can, so long as it is the most efficient, while developing its superior successor.

The green energy initiative was like tearing up your ticket on the runaway favorite at the horse track to bet it all on some claimer that has lost all its races to date. Sure, one of those claimers might turn out to be a winner, but why would you bet everything on which one when you could simply wait and see?

Wind, solar and geothermal are technologies that are not ready for prime time yet. It's not time to make massive investments in any of them.
Let us bury that myth that Green Energy is not as cost effective. Over time Green Energy needs far less maintenance costs as generation costs. Coal and Fossil Fuels have to be mined. There are more human and health hazards that are impacting those involved with the extraction / mining of these fossil fuels. Green energy is readily available and requires a lot less maintenance:

'Coal is on the way out': study finds fossil fuel now pricier than solar or wind
Around 75% of coal production is more expensive than renewables, with industry out-competed on cost by 2025:

Around three-quarters of US coal production is now more expensive than solar and wind energy in providing electricity to American households, according to a new study.

“Even without major policy shift we will continue to see coal retire pretty rapidly,” said Mike O’Boyle, the co-author of the report for Energy Innovation, a renewables analysis firm. “Our analysis shows that we can move a lot faster to replace coal with wind and solar. The fact that so much coal could be retired right now shows we are off the pace.”

The study’s authors used public financial filings and data from the Energy Information Agency (EIA) to work out the cost of energy from coal plants compared with wind and solar options within a 35-mile radius. They found that 211 gigawatts of current US coal capacity, 74% of the coal fleet, is providing electricity that’s more expensive than wind or solar.

By 2025 the picture becomes even clearer, with nearly the entire US coal system out-competed on cost by wind and solar, even when factoring in the construction of new wind turbines and solar panels.

“We’ve seen we are at the ‘coal crossover’ point in many parts of the country but this is actually more widespread than previously thought,” O’Boyle said. “There is a huge potential for wind and solar to replace coal, while saving people money.”

Coal plants have suffered due to rising maintenance costs, including requirements to install pollution controls. Meanwhile, the cost of solar and wind has plummeted as the technology has improved. Cheap and abundant natural gas, as well as the growth of renewables, has hit coal demand, with the EIA reporting in January that half of all US coalmines have shut down over the past decade.

“Coal is on its way out,” said Curtis Morgan, the chief executive of Vistra Energy, a major Texas-based coal plant owner. “More and more plants are being retired.”

Data released last week highlighted the rise of renewables, with electricity generation from clean sources doubling since 2008. The bulk of renewable energy comes from hydro and wind, with solar playing a more minor, albeit growing, role.

Renewables now account for around 17% of US electricity generation, with coal’s share declining. However, the power of coal’s incumbency, bolstered by a sympathetic Trump administration, means it isn’t on track to be eliminated in the US as it is in the UK and Germany.

Fossil fuels continue to receive staunch institutional support, too. A recent report released by a coalition of environmental groups found that 33 global banks have provided $1.9tn in finance to coal, oil and gas companies since the 2015 Paris climate agreement.

In sobering figures released last week, the EIA predicted that US carbon dioxide emissions from energy will remain similar to current levels until 2050, with coal consumption dropping but then leveling off beyond 2020.

Such a scenario, disputed by other experts who argue the transition to renewables will be more rapid, would be compatible with disastrous climate change, causing vast areas of the US coastline to be inundated, the spread of deadly heatwaves, growth of destructive wildfires and food and water insecurity.

The Trump administration has largely ignored scientists’ warnings over these dangers, instead pushing ahead with an “energy dominance” mantra whereby enormous tracts of federal land and waters are opened up for oil and gas drilling.

The Energy Innovation report, which suggests the “smooth shut down” of ageing coal plants, comes as states and territories start to rally to California and Hawaii’s lead in committing to 100% renewable energy.

Lawmakers in New Mexico recently decided to follow suit, with Puerto Rico poised to vote on the issue this week as states and territories attempt to address climate change in lieu of the federal government.

“It would be better if we had a federal cohesive policy because not all states will take the initiative,” said O’Boyle. “In order to get an affordable, clean energy system we need both federal and state actors involved.”

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/mar/25/coal-more-expensive-wind-solar-us-energy-study
 

bver_hunter

Well-known member
Nov 5, 2005
27,331
5,556
113
That puts him up with McGuinty for his gas plant cancellation.
Probably he's already topped that total with his idiotic moves.
Ford and his administration even tried to hide this under the rug:

The NDP researcher had to resort to a roundabout way of confirming that the $230 million listed on the 2018-19 books was spent cancelling energy projects. When government officials did not reply to his queries about the "other transactions," he asked legislative library staff to find out.
 

apoptygma

Well-known member
Dec 31, 2017
3,043
100
48
On CityNews last night they interviewed a landowner in Prince Edward County that had some wind mills on her property.
They were fully erected.
They are now being dismantled.
AND... the $20,000 per yer, 20 year contract stays in place.
So the tax payers pay to build the wind mills, then they pay to dismantle them, then they pay the landowner $400,000 and get nothing in return.
Slick move, DoFo.
 

Boober69

Well-known member
Feb 23, 2012
6,722
263
83
That puts him up with McGuinty for his gas plant cancellation.
Probably he's already topped that total with his idiotic moves.
They said they would cancel them as part of their campaign promises and they did. Promise made, promise kept.
Turbines were in a bad location anyway and you can blame the Liberals for that mistake. The community didn't want them and they were negatively impacting wildlife.

Good riddance.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
79,740
17,568
113
Without getting into your cost analysis of nuclear, I take it you agree that the cost per kilowatt, inclusive of infrastructure costs, of gas turbine generation is far lower than any current "green technology"? Same for hydro-electric generation?
If you count oil and gas discovery subsidies its way more expensive.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
79,740
17,568
113
They said they would cancel them as part of their campaign promises and they did. Promise made, promise kept.
Turbines were in a bad location anyway and you can blame the Liberals for that mistake. The community didn't want them and they were negatively impacting wildlife.

Good riddance.
You're happy that Ford made a stupid promise and then held to it even when he knew it was a total waste of money?
 

bver_hunter

Well-known member
Nov 5, 2005
27,331
5,556
113
They said they would cancel them as part of their campaign promises and they did. Promise made, promise kept.
Turbines were in a bad location anyway and you can blame the Liberals for that mistake. The community didn't want them and they were negatively impacting wildlife.

Good riddance.
Excuses for wasting taxpayers' money, especially as Green Energy is the future, and not the past. Still more disclosures on the way according to the NDP. Dumb DOFO in action!!
 

nottyboi

Well-known member
May 14, 2008
22,447
1,325
113
Without getting into your cost analysis of nuclear, I take it you agree that the cost per kilowatt, inclusive of infrastructure costs, of gas turbine generation is far lower than any current "green technology"? Same for hydro-electric generation?
Thats not at all true. A big part of the 1B cost in the Liberal cancellation scandal was the cost to build the transmission network and network losses. This is the cost of NIMBYism. The recent market based bids for wind power are the lowest of any source. When you built a turbine powered plant, you need to buy the turbines, which are very pricey, house them and provision for intake and exhaust. You need to install gas lines as well. That is not at all taking into account any cost for the emissions. As we can see the desire to not have emissions spewing in their neighbourhood cost the Ontario tax payer 1B so saying there is no cost to emissions is really ludicrous.
 

Jiffy Pop

Active member
May 6, 2003
719
35
28
Ottawa
Just out of curiosity approximately how much land mass would be needed to power the GTA with wind turbines and solar panels.
 

Dutch Oven

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2019
6,804
2,264
113
If you count oil and gas discovery subsidies its way more expensive.
Start reading the posts that you respond to. It will be easier to do that if you are more selective in your posting. You threw in oil (irrelevant), ignored hydro, and failed to distinguish between infrastructure costs vs. public subsidies through tax policy or grant programs.
 

Dutch Oven

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2019
6,804
2,264
113
Thats not at all true. A big part of the 1B cost in the Liberal cancellation scandal was the cost to build the transmission network and network losses. This is the cost of NIMBYism. The recent market based bids for wind power are the lowest of any source. When you built a turbine powered plant, you need to buy the turbines, which are very pricey, house them and provision for intake and exhaust. You need to install gas lines as well. That is not at all taking into account any cost for the emissions. As we can see the desire to not have emissions spewing in their neighbourhood cost the Ontario tax payer 1B so saying there is no cost to emissions is really ludicrous.
Your post needs clarification. I'm not sure whether we are agreeing, disagreeing, or you are addressing an entirely different point.
 

Boober69

Well-known member
Feb 23, 2012
6,722
263
83
Excuses for wasting taxpayers' money, especially as Green Energy is the future, and not the past. Still more disclosures on the way according to the NDP. Dumb DOFO in action!!
Not all green energy investments are good ones.
This one wasn’t.
Just because something is labelled as a green energy initiative doesn’t automatically mean it’s a good investment.
 
Ashley Madison
Toronto Escorts