The value might not be same as the market size of your team. They will consider other factors like liabilities vs assets. Like you might be bringing in the most amount of dollars, but your payroll is 400 million as opposed 250 million, that will effect the value of your team.
Blue Jays 2018 Season (Good Riddance 2017)
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The value might not be same as the market size of your team. They will consider other factors like liabilities vs assets. Like you might be bringing in the most amount of dollars, but your payroll is 400 million as opposed 250 million, that will effect the value of your team.
The Jays value is hurt by the Rogers Center. It's rapidly becoming dilapidated, it's only a matter of time before the roof stops working.
Free agents don't want to come here and play on turf. Look at what's happened to Tulo since he got here. JD's latest injury is turf related, that's going to make even more of a challenge to sign players.
Free agents don't want to come here and play on turf. Look at what's happened to Tulo since he got here. JD's latest injury is turf related, that's going to make even more of a challenge to sign players.
I don't think so...
The dirt infield was installed for 2016 season. So it has been 2+ years now...
Tulo arrived here in mid 2015. He only played for about 2.5 months on turf. He then rapidly began to lose his hitting talents in 2016, but not his defense. That was last year. Then he literally went "poof!" and lost it all. And why the fuck did he not do his bone spur surgery during the winter?
JD only began experiencing his leg problems while playing on dirt... to say it is the result of playing for 1 year on turf would require an experienced medical opinion...
I agree turf may be hard on some OF's, but not all.
But 2 more examples of talent that comes to Toronto and then begin to fade... some of them quicker than others. It must be Voodoo!
Perry
Market size and value are 2 different things.
As an example, the Packers are by far the smallest market in the NFL yet are the 10th most valued team. There are 22 teams that have a bigger market than the Pack yet are valued lower. Dallas is by far the highest value, yet there are a number of markets that are bigger than Dallas.
So your claim that there has to be a 1:1 correlation between market size and value is patently false.
Market size means one thing and one thing only and that is the number of people that live within the sphere of a teams influence with which they can draw revenue.
If a team does not generate enough revenue from those fans, then their value will be decreased. If a tiny market like Green Bay builds up a loyal following in spite of their size they will be valued more than bigger markets because they have figured out how to generate more revenue in spite of their size.
The Jays have the 3rd or 4th biggest (GTA, southern Ontario, Canada) market in MLB but because they haven't figured out how to fully capitalize on that market their value is decreased. IMO, because they run their team under shapeero like a small to mid-market team, that is why they are 16th. Like I pointed out earlier, they will probably lose $100M in revenue from last year, because they are operating on the cheap. They are not being run like a first class organization and as such the result in value ranking is totally understandable an not some sort of aberration as you seem to think.
If you can't understand the difference now between market size and value, I can't add anything that will not continue to go over way over your head, like a Biagini curve ball being hit way over Pillar's head.
Probably has a lot to do with the fact that they cannot sell their TV rights on the open market because Rogers owns the team.
Second, they are not competitive right now - viz. the Martin and Tulo contracts and no exciting young Major League stars. So they're going to have an "asses in seats" problem for 2 or 3 years at least.
Again Phil, it's a fact that we have a huge market. Maybe you should go out with a pencil and paper and count everybody in Southern Ontario. I am guessing about 10,000,000 people with a booming economy. Then throw in visitors from out of area. This is why even in the shitty periods, Rogers Centre normally drew 20,000 per game at a time when franchises like KC, Cleveland and Oakland struggle to draw 5,000 unless their team is a pennant contender.
Now how long are you going to draw out this discussion of whether Toronto is a major sports market or not?
Let's do Chicago. 3 major league teams in the vicinity - Cubs, White Sox, Brewers. Catchment area of about 10,000,000 like Southern Ontario. I included Milwaukee and southern WI. I guess you could throw in Western MI and northern IN and that might make it 15,000,000 between 3 teams. That's still a lot better than small market teams like KC or St Louis which have a catchment of 3-4,000,000 tops.
OTOH, the current Yankees are youth-driven with Sanchez, Judge and Torreyes. Either they are heller lucky or their scouting system kicks the crap out of ours. Same thing with Boston. How many years to do either Bosox or NYY spend as last place teams before they're back on top?.... Only a year or two.
Gotta give credit to the rich teams who also concentrate on their development system. I think AA had done a good job there. Some made the team (no Judge or Gary Sanchez, though) and some were trade bait to get us to the playoffs. I think AA knew how work that aspect.
But regardless, those teams make serious bids for FAs depending on where their farm teams are. My point is that, aside from Phil's valid point that Toronto is not a prime destination for FAs, there is absolutely no reason that Toronto cannot take the same approach. Develop as well as you can and then add premium pieces with $$$ to round out the roster. I defy anyone to tell me why deep pocket Rogers cannot do the same thing and dig themselves out in no more than a year or two instead of saying we need 5 years until we are allowed to be judged. And what is worse, is the fans who accept that small market approach.
Can you name any impact position players that were drafted and developed in the entire time AA was here over a decade he was in Toronto? Including when he was in scouting and AGM.
That is one of the big differences between Jays and the teams they trail in the division in BOS and NYY who have a number of positional all stars that were home grown. The majority of the the Red Sox everyday lineup is their own draft picks or international signings.
The same is true of recent WS champions KC and HOU.
And that has absolutely nothing to do with how big a market a team is. I see you have nothing to dispute my point that Jays are a big market team and that their value is lower ranking than their market size.
OK. This is an aside to the Jays being a big market team being run as a low to mid-market team.
Off the top of my head (so there may be errors and some guys admittedly have been up and down), Stro, Sanchez, OSUNA, VLAD, Pillar. Also used some prospects (most of which did not pan out) to get Donaldson, Tulo, Price, all of whom we were excited to get.
Umm most of those players are pitchers not “position players” as my question had posed and most of the successful teams I mentioned have their solid platforms based on home grown position players. Even the division mates the small market Rays and minor league developmentally challenged Orioles have produced more quality position players in the past decade than Toronto.
What impact position players were traded for any of Price, Donaldson, or Tuolowutski? The later’s contract will go done as one of the worst in baseball history. Thanks Alex.
He signed that contract with Colorado. And were you pissed when AA traded for him?
They were impact players. They had a big impact because other teams wanted them and gave us Price and JD. Pretty good impact if you ask me.
The point is we had a couple of exciting playoff runs with AA regardless of who he developed. But he did not run the Jays as a Mickey Mouse small market team.
When the Jays acquired Tulo, they traded Reyes among others. Reyes sucked defensively and had a large contract. At the time almost everyone loved the acquisition of Tulo. Another guy the the Jays picked up was Smoak. Smoak is a better than average defensive player and if the Jays had someone to protect him would be a more productive hitter.
AA made a priority of developing and drafting pitching. The idea was that pitching can always be traded for position players. Remember that?
Pitchers are 50% of the team. It's not as though it's just a single position.
So, while we are talking about Tulo...
Of course we were all very happy at the time of the trade...
But, does anyone have a reasonable explanation for his morphing from superstud to superdud the minute he got here?
I don't!
It's a puzzlement!
Perry
Of course we were all very happy at the time of the trade...
But, does anyone have a reasonable explanation for his morphing from superstud to superdud the minute he got here?
I don't!
It's a puzzlement!
Perry
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Shack, if you did a survey of all Americans who follow baseball and asked what the big market teams are, I can almost guarantee none of them would say Toronto.
Why do you think Ohtani picked L.A. and not Toronto?? Do you think thats maybe because Los Angeles is a big market city??
If Aaron Judge was given the choice to sign with either NY Yankees or the Jays, and assuming he was offered the exact same money, do you think he would pick Toronto?? Of course he wouldnt, he knows his chances of winning a title are much greater if he plays for a big market team
Phil, please tell me how this influences how many people live in the GTA, southern Ontario, Canada. Population is what determines market size. Not popularity among the players.
As to Ohtani, there are many factors. One of them is 100% geography but understandably important. Pacific coast US is the closest to Japan for a young man leaving his country. That is a huge factor. Toronto and any west coast bid the same or Toronto even 10% over, we lose. It is a stacked deck against getting a guy like Ohtani.
And you helped make my point. A big market team spends what it has to, to stay competitive. A team with deep pockets owners, and a very big market that does not spend is shortchanging the fans.
No, I think you're only partially correct there. If you're going just by fan base size (or population) you're only telling half the story. Whether big names want to play for Toronto also plays a huge part whether a team can call themselves a big market team
Whether big names can be "convinced" to play for Toronto is a measure of how effective management is. Market size is a function of population/viewership. Nothing to do with what management does with the resources a large market provides..
