FRO...Family Responsibility services of Ontario

[GPIDEAL]

I know him quite well and he showed me all his court documents which he submit all his income T4 tax assessments on his financial statements. He has absolutely nothing at all. I don't even know how he survives with that kind of income. I myself have been in that situation 2 yrs ago and I know how he feels. My pension and my old age security were all garnished 50% and that was not enough and was a few hundreds below my spousal support judgement. So I have to come out of retirement and working and paying 50% of my employment income to meet that spousal support settlement we had agreed upon while I was running my business. We have grown up kids and she is still working full time but I was married for 35 yrs so I have to pay till death do us part. It is life sentence for me.

If your income decreased since the original order, why can't you make a varying motion?

 

[GPIDEAL]

Well, the FRO people don't come out ahead; they are simply civil servants who are doing their job. I happen to know the FRO courtroom attorneys personally and they would far prefer to give the payor a break and work out a reasonable settlement. They're nice, mild-mannered, decent people and not hard-faced harridans.

The law has to be enforced or else it will be ignored. Guys are only jailed as a last resort and usually because the judge thinks that they are lying. If the ultimate sanction of jail was never applied, then the hard cases would scoff at the law and the courts.

I mean, who "comes out ahead" when a rapist or fraudster is jailed?

Yes, they are the civil service collection agents, not the ones who make the support decisions.

 

[mandrill]

I meant with respect to the support calculation. His support obligations are still accruing while she is doing her part. My question is, do they take into her account her income too? I can understand if $1,000 per month includes a measure of compensating her for her time as a mom, but wonder if they impute her income as a monetary source to share the cost of bills.

No, there is a simple chart which cross references his income and the # of kids.

 

[chongqing]

Canada is the worst country in the world to get divorced.
The term "divorce rape" originated in Canada. Welcome to feminist and man-gina nirvana
Got to get out of this country ASAP and move to a county where there are still traditional women and no feminism like Senegal and Morrocco

 

[GPIDEAL]

No, there is a simple chart which cross references his income and the # of kids.

Wow. So if she's making more money as a real estate agent, it's irrelevant, so long as she has the kids at least 60% of the time? (This doesn't mean that she doesn't buy the kids anything nice or spend money on them too).

 

[franci]

But is the payment not offset by the amount of income she makes. I always thought that the higher earner would have to pay equalization payments, be it for child support or alimony.

No, there is a simple chart which cross references his income and the # of kids.

 

[GPIDEAL]

But is the payment not offset by the amount of income she makes. I always thought that the higher earner would have to pay equalization payments, be it for child support or alimony.

Not a lawyer, but was divorced, although no kids.

Equalization payment* is a term associated with the division of net family property, not support.

*To some, it is known as the 'fuck-off payment'.

 

[franci]

Thanks. Good to know.

Not a lawyer, but was divorced, although no kids.

Equalization payment* is a term associated with the division of net family property, not support.

*To some, it is known as the 'fuck-off payment'.

 

[GPIDEAL]

AFAIK franci

 

[mandrill]

Wow. So if she's making more money as a real estate agent, it's irrelevant, so long as she has the kids at least 60% of the time? (This doesn't mean that she doesn't buy the kids anything nice or spend money on them too).

It makes sense in a crude "one size fits all" sort of way. From each according to his / her means.

And no judge is going to continue the case just to superintend how she spends the money.

 

[mandrill]

Not a lawyer, but was divorced, although no kids.

Equalization payment* is a term associated with the division of net family property, not support.

*To some, it is known as the 'fuck-off payment'.

Yup. Roughly speaking.

 

[GPIDEAL]

It makes sense in a crude "one size fits all" sort of way. From each according to his / her means.

And no judge is going to continue the case just to superintend how she spends the money.

Yup. Roughly speaking.

Okay and thanks.

 

[bobcat40]

Are they for real? Do they really care about the families, wives and children? A Korean friend I know who got divorced about 5 yrs ago and his spousal support agreement was about 1800 a month. But he lost his business and now working for someone with a lot less pay and income. Half of his wages were garnished which left him with barely enough money to live on and sleeping in his car for a few mos now and using a gym nearby for his shower and toilet and such.

He was told about 5-6 months ago that he was behind his payment roughly about $35k and might lose his driving license if he cannot come up with some kind of payment even tho they are getting half of his income plus his GST benefits and all. He will definitely lose his job if his driving license is yanked and the wife and his 10 yrs old daughter won' t get anything. He pleaded with the judge on his last court date and it seems they had fallen onto deaf ears. He had made some mistakes in court while his divorce case was on trial and cannot appeal his spousal support payments for a reason I couldn't understand.

The way he told me is he might be in jail for 60 days by middle of this month. What the f@#$ was FRO and the judges thinking? Who is gonna benefit from all this if he were put in jail and lost his job when he came out. He said he'd rather be on welfare after he got out of jail. He said he is better off that way with all the assistants and benefits from Gov't. Looks to me like the FRO doesn't really care about the families or the kids. All they care about is their existence and securing their high paying jobs. Where is the fairness and justice here? The judges are in that too from my observations.

Thank God..he is a selfless, harmless non violent type guy. No wonder some guys went nuts and ended up killing family members or burning down the house and such.

Having actually worked for FRO in the past, I think there are many misconceptions and probably other circumstances that are omitted. First of all, FRO just enforces the court order. They don't have the ability to amend the court order and their discretion is actually very limited under the Provincial legislation.

Secondly, it is your friends responsibility to get an amended court order when his financial situation changed. Your friend basically waited until he is 35k in arrears which is like missing 2 years worth of $1800 payments. Yes by this time, FRO will take actions such as suspending his license. This actually could have occurred much sooner. And that's not even the end of the misinformation...if your friend requires his driver's license to work, he gain go to court for a refraining order against FRO to prove why he can't have his license suspended.

If as you say, the judge is in the position to issue a warrant of committal, your friend has probably ignored the million warning letters sent his way to pay or explain his circumstances in court. This is very rare and an absolute last resort.

And to put fairly, FRO isn't in the position to be a judge and give breaks to everyone's excuses and stories. Everyone has an excuse or reason not to pay. It's up to a judge to determine who is telling the truth and who deserves a break. Clearly the initial trial judge didn't believe him and they are usually very fair. If your friend truly believes the judge didn't give him a fair shake, there is always the right to appeal that decision. But to be honest, I have never heard of that kind of judgement before. This just sounds like a case of the payor neglectful of his payments, ignoring the million notices and warnings from FRO, not bothering to get an amended court order, and being "surprised" by the enforcement actions taken when his case is 35k in arrears. I'm not going to say the program is perfect, but it sounds like it is working as intended in this case.

 

[freedom3]

There must be a "catch" somewhere. If his situation was that straightforward and sympathetic, neither FRO nor the judge would be out to get him.

Have him show you the judge's "endorsements". These are photocopies of the judge's notes, comments and orders on his case. This will illustrate the judge's reactions to his presentation.

Practicing law so many years and still believing men stand a chance. When a man walks into court, the only thing on the judge's mind is coming up with some rationale to make him pay. No one should feel bad for the OP's friend, though. He decided to get married.

 

[mandrill]

Practicing law so many years and still believing men stand a chance. When a man walks into court, the only thing on the judge's mind is coming up with some rationale to make him pay. No one should feel bad for the OP's friend, though. He decided to get married.

Well, you obviously know the judges far better than I do... I defer to your knowledge.

 

[Gentlescorp]

Having actually worked for FRO in the past, I think there are many misconceptions and probably other circumstances that are omitted. First of all, FRO just enforces the court order. They don't have the ability to amend the court order and their discretion is actually very limited under the Provincial legislation.

Secondly, it is your friends responsibility to get an amended court order when his financial situation changed. Your friend basically waited until he is 35k in arrears which is like missing 2 years worth of $1800 payments. Yes by this time, FRO will take actions such as suspending his license. This actually could have occurred much sooner. And that's not even the end of the misinformation...if your friend requires his driver's license to work, he gain go to court for a refraining order against FRO to prove why he can't have his license suspended.

If as you say, the judge is in the position to issue a warrant of committal, your friend has probably ignored the million warning letters sent his way to pay or explain his circumstances in court. This is very rare and an absolute last resort.

And to put fairly, FRO isn't in the position to be a judge and give breaks to everyone's excuses and stories. Everyone has an excuse or reason not to pay. It's up to a judge to determine who is telling the truth and who deserves a break. Clearly the initial trial judge didn't believe him and they are usually very fair. If your friend truly believes the judge didn't give him a fair shake, there is always the right to appeal that decision. But to be honest, I have never heard of that kind of judgement before. This just sounds like a case of the payor neglectful of his payments, ignoring the million notices and warnings from FRO, not bothering to get an amended court order, and being "surprised" by the enforcement actions taken when his case is 35k in arrears. I'm not going to say the program is perfect, but it sounds like it is working as intended in this case.

Thanks for the info re FRO. I have met some nice officers who has a good knowledge of me in my case but there was nothing much they can do. The only thing puzzled me was they say nice things and explained to me before they enter the court room but they acted completely different in front of the judges.

He was in arrear just like me. They are counting all the months he hasn't work and while on social assistant for a few months hence all piled up. But he was paying half of his income after he started working and nothing was hidden to the best of my knowledge but 50% of his income covers only about 40% of his spousal support judgement so it all adds up to 35k. There is nothing much he can do.. He is still sleeping in his car at Tim Horton's parking lot. He used to sleep near the Golf club where I hang out but police woke him up and told not allowed to sleep in public places. He owes a few hundreds to some of his friends.

So was my case. My judgement was $3500 a month cuz I was still running the business a few yrs back and she was living in a luxury house in prestigious neighbourhood. After I lost my business I couldn't meet my spousal support payment and was behind as well but managed to survive. Donno how long I can keep on working tho'. I cannot appeal for lesser payment either cuz they found about $40,000 cash which I failed to disclose when the bailiff seized my office for business documents. Her lawyer made up good stories I might have some more large sum of cash hidden some where overseas and such and the judge bought his argument.

 

[mandrill]

Thanks for the info re FRO. I have met some nice officers who has a good knowledge of me in my case but there was nothing much they can do. The only thing puzzled me was they say nice things and explained to me before they enter the court room but they acted completely different in front of the judges.

He was in arrear just like me. They are counting all the months he hasn't work and while on social assistant for a few months hence all piled up. But he was paying half of his income after he started working and nothing was hidden to the best of my knowledge but 50% of his income covers only about 40% of his spousal support judgement so it all adds up to 35k. There is nothing much he can do.. He is still sleeping in his car at Tim Horton's parking lot. He used to sleep near the Golf club where I hang out but police woke him up and told not allowed to sleep in public places. He owes a few hundreds to some of his friends.

So was my case. My judgement was $3500 a month cuz I was still running the business a few yrs back and she was living in a luxury house in prestigious neighbourhood. After I lost my business I couldn't meet my spousal support payment and was behind as well but managed to survive. Donno how long I can keep on working tho'. I cannot appeal for lesser payment either cuz they found about $40,000 cash which I failed to disclose when the bailiff seized my office for business documents. Her lawyer made up good stories I might have some more large sum of cash hidden some where overseas and such and the judge bought his argument.

Well, the judge catches you lying and he doesn't believe you any more and believes everything your wife says instead. Morale of that story?

Judges are pretty firm on not being lied to. And the lawyer who says that you are hiding sums overseas. Your wife told your lawyer that. And he has no reason not to believe her because you got caught hiding other money and lying to the judge and the lawyers and to FRO. Morale of THAT story?

 

[Cassini]

Anyone that owns a business, and gets divorced, is screwed. The entire divorce system is based on fixed cash-flows, and business is not. Business cash flows go up and down. Sometimes, simply the distraction of the divorce case results in the business failing.

After the business closes, the business owner loses his income. He also loses his ability to pay his lawyers.

At that point, the business owner has a one-way ticket to trouble. He will lose his driver's license, lose his job, and likely go to jail.

People that go to jail for not paying the FRO aren't low-income earners. They are high-income earners that have crashed.

 

[Vixens]

Wow. So if she's making more money as a real estate agent, it's irrelevant, so long as she has the kids at least 60% of the time? (This doesn't mean that she doesn't buy the kids anything nice or spend money on them too).

It doesn't matter how much money she makes or he makes. Child support is the right of the child and children should benefit from the income of both parents. It's all percentage based. If the dad had the kids 60% of the time, she'd be paying him. Best method is 50/50. Child support is then based on the offset method and the kids get to spend equal time with both parents.

Steph

 

[Gentlescorp]

Anyone that owns a business, and gets divorced, is screwed. The entire divorce system is based on fixed cash-flows, and business is not. Business cash flows go up and down. Sometimes, simply the distraction of the divorce case results in the business failing.

After the business closes, the business owner loses his income. He also loses his ability to pay his lawyers.

At that point, the business owner has a one-way ticket to trouble. He will lose his driver's license, lose his job, and likely go to jail.

People that go to jail for not paying the FRO aren't low-income earners. They are high-income earners that have crashed.

That is exactly what happened to me. She took over my business by court order and I lost them all. She destroyed the business in less than one yr. I was stuck with the spousal support agreement which I stupidly agreed on against my lawyer's advice. The worst thing was getting caught with 40k cash which is the only thing I have left after they seized all my bank accounts. They let me keep the money but my reputation to the judges was gone and I was screwed since then.