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Co-Founder of Wikipedia: Wikipedia Is Badly Biased

canada-man

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Wikipedia’s “NPOV” is dead.

1 The original policy long since forgotten, Wikipedia no longer has an effective neutrality policy. There is a rewritten policy, but it endorses the utterly bankrupt canard that journalists should avoid what they call “false balance.”2 The notion that we should avoid “false balance” is directly contradictory to the original neutrality policy. As a result, even as journalists turn to opinion and activism, Wikipedia now touts controversial points of view on politics, religion, and science. Here are some examples from each of these subjects, which were easy to find, no hunting around. Many, many more could be given.

Examples have become embarrassingly easy to find. The Barack Obama article completely fails to mention many well-known scandals: Benghazi, the IRS scandal, the AP phone records scandal, and Fast and Furious, to say nothing of Solyndra or the Hillary Clinton email server scandal—or, of course, the developing “Obamagate” story in which Obama was personally involved in surveilling Donald Trump. A fair article about a major political figure certainly must include the bad with the good. The only scandals that I could find that were mentioned were a few that the left finds at least a little scandalous, such as Snowden’s revelations about NSA activities under Obama. In short, the article is almost a total whitewash. You might find this to be objectively correct; but you cannot claim that this is a neutral treatment, considering that the other major U.S. party would treat it differently. On such a topic, neutrality in any sense worth the name essentially requires that readers not be able to detect the editors’ political alignment.


Meanwhile, as you can imagine, the idea that the Donald Trump article is neutral is a joke. Just for example, there are 5,224 none-too-flattering words in the “Presidency” section. By contrast, the following “Public Profile” (which the Obama article entirely lacks), “Investigations,” and “Impeachment” sections are unrelentingly negative, and together add up to some 4,545 words—in other words, the controversy sections are almost as long as the sections about his presidency. Common words in the article are “false” and “falsely” (46 instances): Wikipedia frequently asserts, in its own voice, that many of Trump’s statements are “false.” Well, perhaps they are. But even if they are, it is not exactly neutral for an encyclopedia article to say so, especially without attribution. You might approve of Wikipedia describing Trump’s incorrect statements as “false,” very well; but then you must admit that you no longer support a policy of neutrality on Wikipedia.

https://larrysanger.org/2020/05/wikipedia-is-badly-biased/
 

K Douglas

Half Man Half Amazing
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I don't think we needed the co founder to tell us what is plainly obvious - the site has a left wing bias. Just like the vast majority of social media and news organizations have.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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I don't think we needed the co founder to tell us what is plainly obvious - the site has a left wing bias. Just like the vast majority of social media and news organizations have.
Maybe one day you're realize that bias is because that reflects the opinion of the general public and you are in the minority.
 

WyattEarp

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Maybe one day you're realize that bias is because that reflects the opinion of the general public and you are in the minority.
There are plenty of issues/opinions where the American general public does not share the bias of most the media. I think Trump came to office partially because of this frustration that their voice is drowned out. Trade and immigration come to mind. The rest of Trump's policies are probably not all that popular beyond the conservative base. Trump's demeanor isn't really all that popular.
 

Frankfooter

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There are plenty of issues/opinions where the American general public does not share the bias of most the media. I think Trump came to office partially because of this frustration that their voice is drowned out. Trade and immigration come to mind. The rest of Trump's policies are probably not all that popular beyond the conservative base. Trump's demeanor isn't really all that popular.
Trump is a chronic bullshitter and flips out when he's called on it.
But now 'fake news' is a term being used by countries around the world to censure bad press.

Driving the news: The ACLU has filed a lawsuit on behalf of two Puerto Rican journalists who fear that two recent "fake news" laws will be used to punish them for their reporting on the coronavirus crisis.

The Puerto Rico laws make it a crime for journalists to report information about emergencies that the government considers “fake news."

They technically only apply to “false information,” but ACLU argues that the broad-based definition will inevitably be used to suppress true information.

The big picture: The tactic of targeting the press under the guise of stopping "fake news" is increasingly becoming more normalized.

Hungary's government passed a law in March that gives the government power to punish those who spread "false information" about the pandemic with up to five years in prison.

The Philippines passed a law in March that says journalists may face jail sentences of up to two months for "spreading false information" about the virus and a fine of up to $20,000, per CNN.

Singapore last year passed a law last year which allows the government to force online platforms to remove or correct information that it believes is false.
https://www.axios.com/fake-news-laws-coronavirus-pandemic-4def8720-9ad8-4b8d-abfa-762581865463.html

This is Trump's goal, attack the press so that his base think its the media that's corrupt, not Trump.
 

canada-man

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WyattEarp

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so CBS showing pictures of an italian hospital when they are reporting about new york covid cases reflects the opinion of the public?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cbs-news-italian-hospital/
I don't know if this media bias is as bad in Canada, the UK, etc. It's pretty bad in the U.S. Beyond the one or two frequent political participants here who don't support Trump, most will not even acknowledge the existence of political bias in the media. I don't consider calling out Fox News alone terribly astute.

Most of our Democrat supporting friends here, are keenly aware the press is the lynchpin of Democratic party politics. Throw in Trump's disdain for the press and it's hopeless to get an honest rise from them. There is never a simple "Yeah, that's stupid reporting." A few Democratic supporters (Liberals, but danmand says I shouldn't use labels) here seem to enjoy repeating everything that the media cooks up.
 

canada-man

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I don't know if this media bias is as bad in Canada, the UK, etc. It's pretty bad in the U.S. Beyond one or two frequent political participants who don't support Trump, most will not even acknowledge the existence of political bias in the media. I don't consider calling out Fox News alone terribly astute.

Most of our Democrat supporting friends here, are keenly aware the press is the lynchpin of Democratic party politics. Throw in Trump's disdain for the press and it's hopeless to get an honest rise from them. There is never a simple "Yeah, that's stupid reporting." A few Democratic supporters (Liberals, but danmand says I shouldn't use labels) here seem to enjoy repeating everything that the media cooks up.
media bias here is just as bad. local news talk radio stations like 640 toronto and CFRB 1010 are less biased
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
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More like reporting the facts is "biased"!!
There is bias, even if it is only what facts to report on and how much prominence to give to those reports.

What K and his like don't like is that media tends to reflect the opinions of the population (or at least their potential consumers). If most of the media is reporting something as a negative, it's not some liberal conspiracy but rather because it is the feelings of the viewers/readers.
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
59,843
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I don't know if this media bias is as bad in Canada, the UK, etc. It's pretty bad in the U.S. Beyond the one or two frequent political participants here who don't support Trump, most will not even acknowledge the existence of political bias in the media. I don't consider calling out Fox News alone terribly astute.

Most of our Democrat supporting friends here, are keenly aware the press is the lynchpin of Democratic party politics. Throw in Trump's disdain for the press and it's hopeless to get an honest rise from them. There is never a simple "Yeah, that's stupid reporting." A few Democratic supporters (Liberals, but danmand says I shouldn't use labels) here seem to enjoy repeating everything that the media cooks up.
Sorry but it's not a partisan issue. Media for decades has been using illustrative images or videos to show while they are talking. Combine that with the rush of the 24h news cycle and it is quite easy to find incorrect footage being used.

For me the telling thing is whether that media source is willing at admit and correct the issue.
 

WyattEarp

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Sorry but it's not a partisan issue. Media for decades has been using illustrative images or videos to show while they are talking. Combine that with the rush of the 24h news cycle and it is quite easy to find incorrect footage being used.

For me the telling thing is whether that media source is willing at admit and correct the issue.
I think you're focusing on the footage of the Italian hospital in a story about American hospitals. I was speaking of partisan news reporting in general.

Whether you believe there is partisan reporting or not, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. For me, it starts with media blending commentary with reporting. The strong desire of journalists to want to weave a narrative is also something I pick up on immediately.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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There has always been partisan and biased reporting.
The whole idea of "objective journalism" was a lie and really only gained traction post WWII. (There was also a bit of a move away from partisanship earlier when people learned you could make more money on ads than on subscriptions of you got your circulation high enough.)

You can have good reporting and fact-based material in a partisan media. There are different levels of bias and partisanship. (A media that views itself as partisan first and foremost and as a news service second is different than one that views itself as a news source but has an ideological bent.)

You can be biased but credible. (All humans are biased) you can be biased and not-credible.

But there is no purely objective media and never really has been.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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Wyatt Earp is also 10000% right that the desire for "A Narrative" skews the fuck out of all kinds of reporting. Narrative is the human brain super power but also a massive weakness that can be exploited.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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There has always been partisan and biased reporting.
The whole idea of "objective journalism" was a lie and really only gained traction post WWII. (There was also a bit of a move away from partisanship earlier when people learned you could make more money on ads than on subscriptions of you got your circulation high enough.)

You can have good reporting and fact-based material in a partisan media. There are different levels of bias and partisanship. (A media that views itself as partisan first and foremost and as a news service second is different than one that views itself as a news source but has an ideological bent.)

You can be biased but credible. (All humans are biased) you can be biased and not-credible.

But there is no purely objective media and never really has been.
True, journalism always relied on reporting the facts accurately but editorial bias results in which stories are pushed to the front page and what shows up as commentary.

But don't forget that we have a great model as an alternative here.
CBC

CBC news isn't corporate owned, has arms length protections from the government and an ombudsman that watches for bias different from the views of Canadians.

Its not perfect, but its a much better model.
The did this investigation, for example.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/tow-truck-industry-organized-crime-arrests-1.5583626
 

K Douglas

Half Man Half Amazing
Jan 5, 2005
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Room 112
Maybe one day you're realize that bias is because that reflects the opinion of the general public and you are in the minority.
Not only is your statement arrogant and ignorant, its dangerous. An objective media is essential for a democracy to thrive. 'Tell them what they want to hear' is not a justification for reporting bias? Bias that is quite often based on opinion, half truths, lack of context or downright lies. Furthermore, it could be argued that this 'general public' formed their opinion based on the biased reporting in the first place. This has been going on for decades after all.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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Not only is your statement arrogant and ignorant, its dangerous. An objective media is essential for a democracy to thrive. 'Tell them what they want to hear' is not a justification for reporting bias? Bias that is quite often based on opinion, half truths, lack of context or downright lies. Furthermore, it could be argued that this 'general public' formed their opinion based on the biased reporting in the first place. This has been going on for decades after all.
The problem is that for you 'objective' means extreme right wing views while for most Canadians CBC is closer to objective.
How do you rectify that?
 

WyattEarp

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May 17, 2017
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Wyatt Earp is also 10000% right that the desire for "A Narrative" skews the fuck out of all kinds of reporting. Narrative is the human brain super power but also a massive weakness that can be exploited.
I'm glad you concur. I have friends and family who seem to be frustrated when you breakdown their news story as a narrative when they are convinced they are hearing objective facts. Narratives have an incredible appeal to someone who wants to believe the underlying theme.
 

K Douglas

Half Man Half Amazing
Jan 5, 2005
26,210
6,483
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Room 112
The problem is that for you 'objective' means extreme right wing views while for most Canadians CBC is closer to objective.
How do you rectify that?
CBC objective? You're off your rocker SMDH.
 
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