‘We’re losing our patience’: Doug Ford slams teachers’ unions

basketcase said:

So you are against John comparing teachers to public sector then? The 'market forces' that drive education is the learning of the students and international testing has them at the top of the world.


p.s. Funny to see Ford exposed repeatedly. After the elementary talks broke off he claimed that the failure was the union making new demands despite them being listed this summer. Also wonder which of his staffers wrote the $50,000+ cheque for the adds from 'working' parents.

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Remember when Ford wanted to start the negotiations in April/May and the unions refused? Heaven forbid they strike during the summer. Better to hold kids hostage during the school year.
Have you seen the math scores in Ontario over the past few years? And we should reward teachers for that?
Any idea why enrolment numbers have been dropping but the union wants to hire more teachers?

Or I guess if you just hate Ford, you will use anything and everything against him in spite. I thought you were smarter than that.
Pity. Really.

Boober69 said:

Remember when Ford wanted to start the negotiations in April/May and the unions refused? Heaven forbid they strike during the summer. Better to hold kids hostage during the school year.
Have you seen the math scores in Ontario over the past few years? And we should reward teachers for that?
Any idea why enrolment numbers have been dropping but the union wants to hire more teachers?

Or I guess if you just hate Ford, you will use anything and everything against him in spite. I thought you were smarter than that.
Pity. Really.

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Anyone that calls out Ford for his stupidity is supposed to be a "Ford Hater"?? You idolize that moron!!

Boober69 said:

...
Have you seen the math scores in Ontario over the past few years? And we should reward teachers for that?....

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According to massive international testing, Canada scores 6th in reading, 10th in Math, and 7th in science and Ontario is at the national average. That upsets you?


https://www.oecd.org/pisa/PISA 2018 Insights and Interpretations FINAL PDF.pdf
https://www.cmec.ca/docs/pisa2018/PISA2018_Highlights_EN.pdf

Any idea why enrolment numbers have been dropping but the union wants to hire more teachers?

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Your math and reading skills must be a problem since the union wants to reduce teacher cuts, not hire more.

basketcase said:

According to massive international testing, Canada scores 6th in reading, 10th in Math, and 7th in science and Ontario is at the national average. That upsets you?


https://www.oecd.org/pisa/PISA 2018 Insights and Interpretations FINAL PDF.pdf
https://www.cmec.ca/docs/pisa2018/PISA2018_Highlights_EN.pdf


Your math and reading skills must be a problem since the union wants to reduce teacher cuts, not hire more.

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OECD = 36 member countries, ~250 in the world, not quite the sampling one would hope for to brag about scores (excludes China, India, Russia, and most other Asian and Middle Eastern countries to name a few).

Math scores declining over past decade:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-elementary-math-scores-declining-1.5262440

Enrolment declining in Ontario:
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-education-spending-increased-as-enrollment-dropped-fraser-institute-1.4276594

Yet you want to reward teachers and keep the same (if you actually believe the union doesn't want to hire more)? Looks like your reading and math skills could use some online education courses.

oagre said:

In Larue-land, well qualified professionals with a couple of university degrees should only make decent money if they're in the corporate sector. Next, Larue will be telling us that judges should be making $24,000.00 a year.

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In the real world, people make decent money when the company they work for is successful and they contribute to that success. If the company is unsuccessful or if they slack off, they get let go and/or the company folds.

In the real world, people don't just get money and perks thrown at them for showing up for work 8 months of the year.

Frankfooter said:

Payscale says its only $60k a year.
https://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=High_School_Teacher/Salary/004c9fd6/Toronto-ON

And if you look at the salary grids the average larue says is happening doesn't look likely at all.
Elementary.
https://ett.ca/salary-grid-for-tdsb-elementary-teachers/
Secondary.
http://dpsuoecta.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Secondary-Teachers-Salary-Grid-Feb-2017-Aug-2019.pdf

Could it be that larue is cooking the books again?

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Could it be Frankfooter is trying to mislead ?
Cant find the 93K source , I know I read it recently however
As of 2017
https://careers.workopolis.com/advice/five-surprising-jobs-that-pay-six-figure-salaries/

Teachers
Though not all hit the $100,000 mark, teachers in Ontario have an average salary of $83,500, which puts them on par with the average lawyer in Ontario, according to Macleans Magazine who counted 88 teachers in Hamilton alone who make more than $100,000. Though good earning potential and work-life balance make teaching a good career option, an abundance of teachers make this a career choice with low employment prospects.

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That was 2017 & their last contract was signed by Granny Wynne. I seem to recall raises >4-6% were baked into the final years of the contract, however, I wont bother spending the time to prove it.

Either way they do not need anymore from a government with $350 B in debt and 15-17 years of straight defects. This is insane & it is the kids in school now who will be burdened with this mess

The loonies just ignore the debt and its implications for future generations . unbelievably irresponsible

Boober69 said:

In the real world, people make decent money when the company they work for is successful and they contribute to that success. If the company is unsuccessful or if they slack off, they get let go and/or the company folds.

In the real world, people don't just get money and perks thrown at them for showing up for work 8 months of the year.

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Teachers give our kids successful education, guess that means you think they should be paid for it.
Or would you rather not pay them so that education isn't successful?

JohnLarue said:

Could it be Frankfooter is trying to mislead ?
Cant find the 93K source , however
As of 2017

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Hey larue, I went to the source and linked to elementary and secondary teacher grids.
So why do you think some job search website is a better source than the posted salaries?

Frankfooter said:

Hey larue, I went to the source and linked to elementary and secondary teacher grids.
So why do you think some job search website is a better source than the posted salaries?

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Actually you posted a job search site that looks like it has not been updated in many years

Originally Posted by Frankfooter View Post
Payscale says its only $60k a year.
https://www.payscale.com/research/CA...fd6/Toronto-ON

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The grids??? Please
You can not calculate an average with the grids without having % of teachers for each grid slot.
Grade six math.

Workopolis is well know, and if you read what was posted you would see they quoted "MCleans for the 2017 average of $83,500" .
A couple of 4-6% raises in 2018 & 2019 courtesy of Granny Wynne's contract, some upward movement through the grid and the average teacher is knocking on the door of the top 10% salaries in Canada
And that is being paid for with more debt
a pretty bleak future for the students

Whether you are incapable of understanding simple math or just plain trying to mislead others, lets say there is some trust issues with what you posted
Who do you think you are fooling?

JohnLarue said:

The grids??? Please
You can not calculate an average with the grids without having % of teachers for each grid slot.
Grade six math.

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Since you brag about your math and science skills it should be no problem to go through those grids and tell us how many teachers would have to be making the maximum for your average wage to be $83k.
Go ahead, this is your claim, now prove it.

Boober69 said:

OECD = 36 member countries, ~250 in the world, not quite the sampling one would hope for to brag about scores (excludes China, India, Russia, and most other Asian and Middle Eastern countries to name a few)....

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Maybe instead of making excuses, you should try reading. The Average Canadian kid reads better than all except those in Singapore, China and Estonia so what is you excuse for not noticing that 4 of China's major cities as well as the former Chinese protectorates are included on that list. You also missed that Russia IS on the list and they score noticeably below Canada. So are most Middle Eastern countries. In fact there were almost 100 countries involved in the testing.

And yes, Canadian kids score better at Math than all of Scandinavia, the UK, Germany, Ireland, France, New Zealand, ...

You seem to want us to pay teachers like the Americans do so it's farcical that you are talking about test results as the US is way below Canada.

JohnLarue said:

Could it be Frankfooter is trying to mislead ?
Cant find the 93K source , I know I read it recently however
As of 2017
https://careers.workopolis.com/advice/five-surprising-jobs-that-pay-six-figure-salaries/


That was 2017 & their last contract was signed by Granny Wynne. I seem to recall raises >4-6% were baked into the final years of the contract, however, I wont bother spending the time to prove it.

...

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Of course you won't because just like your $93,000 number, you are making shit up.

September 1, 2017
• 1.5%
• September 1, 2018
• 1%
• February 1, 2019
• 1%
• August 31, 2019
• 0.5%

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http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/agreements/2017/osstf_teachers_extension_agreement_2017_02_23.pdf

That looks remarkably close to Ford's demand of 1% per year.

And funny to see you pretending to support 'future generations' while supporting Ford's cuts that are affecting learning, not teacher salaries.

Frankfooter said:

Since you brag about your math and science skills it should be no problem to go through those grids and tell us how many teachers would have to be making the maximum for your average wage to be $83k.
Go ahead, this is your claim, now prove it.

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As I pointed out to you, you need the % of teachers in each grid slot & that information is not in your PDF
You are not very bright.

Besides workopolis provided the 2017 average
The teachers are knocking on the door of the top 10% of all Canadians.... and Ont has $350 B in debt.
This will end poorly for Ont & the students

JohnLarue said:

As I pointed out to you, you need the % of teachers in each grid slot & that information is not in your PDF
You are not very bright.

Besides workopolis provided the 2017 average
The teachers are knocking on the door of the top 10% of all Canadians.... and Ont has $350 B in debt.
This will end poorly for Ont & the students

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I'm just waiting for you to tell me how many teachers have to be making the top salary when the lowest salary is only about $44k yet you claim the average is $83k.
But I know that math isn't your strong suit.

basketcase said:

Of course you won't because just like your $93,000 number, you are making shit up.


http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/agreements/2017/osstf_teachers_extension_agreement_2017_02_23.pdf

That looks remarkably close to Ford's demand of 1% per year.

And funny to see you pretending to support 'future generations' while supporting Ford's cuts that are affecting learning, not teacher salaries.

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yeah right is all ablout the kids
the same kids who will need to deal with the debt down the road

Ok in an effort to be accurate then
83,500
1.5% 84,753
1.0% 85,600
1.0% 86,456
0.5% 86,888


But that does not account for movements within the grid

https://factcheck.afp.com/average-teacher-salary-ontario-misrepresented-during-union-talks

With one of Ontario’s largest teachers’ unions currently in negotiations with the Ministry of Education over future contracts, several numbers have been floated online in reference to the average salary for a public school teachers in the central Canadian province. Some Twitter and Facebook posts claim the average annual salary for public school teachers in Ontario is 59,517 Canadian dollars (Can), but the number is closer to Can$90,000 according to the Ontario Ministry of Education, or Can$87,000 according to provincial teachers’ unions.

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Since Frankfooter speaks for the unions, I will tend to believe the governments number

And then you have Frankfooter ridiculously misleading number from Payscale.
https://factcheck.afp.com/average-teacher-salary-ontario-misrepresented-during-union-talks

The figure suggested in the Tweet post appears to come from PayScale, a US-based online platform that provides job seekers and employers with average salaries in various industries to assist both parties in determining appropriate compensation during the hiring process. One page with similar numbers refers to the average salary for high school teachers in Toronto, Ontario.

However, because PayScale relies on crowd-sourced data to determine average salaries, the results are not always a statistically accurate reflection of reality. A PayScale spokesperson told AFP in an email that the company does not have sufficient data to reflect the reality of the average pay for teachers across Ontario.

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93K, 90K, or 87K. It does not really matter. That is a ridiculous average salary for a teacher & one we simply can not afford

Yeah right, "its all about the kids"
The same kids who will have to deal with a crushing debt load , while the teachers will be retired with million dollar pensions


The public sector unions will destroy this province, probably already have, as this debt load is well beyond what is manageable, let alone sustainable
But it was all "for the kids" . it is enough to make one vomit

Frankfooter said:

I'm just waiting for you to tell me how many teachers have to be making the top salary when the lowest salary is only about $44k yet you claim the average is $83k.
But I know that math isn't your strong suit.

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Too funny
You need to drop your pants to count to 21

My math skills are good enough

https://factcheck.afp.com/average-te...ng-union-talks

The figure suggested in the Tweet post appears to come from PayScale, a US-based online platform that provides job seekers and employers with average salaries in various industries to assist both parties in determining appropriate compensation during the hiring process. One page with similar numbers refers to the average salary for high school teachers in Toronto, Ontario.

However, because PayScale relies on crowd-sourced data to determine average salaries, the results are not always a statistically accurate reflection of reality. A PayScale spokesperson told AFP in an email that the company does not have sufficient data to reflect the reality of the average pay for teachers across Ontario.

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Like so much of what you post. your payscale number is useless misleading bullshit

JohnLarue said:

Too funny
You need to drop your pants to count to 21

My math skills are good enough

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I don't believe you.

Frankfooter said:

Teachers give our kids successful education, guess that means you think they should be paid for it.
Or would you rather not pay them so that education isn't successful?

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Private teachers give our kids a better education. Deal with it and ask yourself why.

Boober69 said:

Private teachers give our kids a better education. Deal with it and ask yourself why.

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They pay their teachers more and put more money into the schools and services.

Frankfooter said:

They pay their teachers more and put more money into the schools and services.

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You can pay poor teachers in a poor system as much as you like, but they will still be poor teachers. Paying them more doesn't make them any better. Paying people more to do the same job the same way is a losing proposition. No rational person would do that with their own finances if they had any other choice. Private schools achieve different results because they do things differently, not because they spend more.

The government plan is to introduce more efficiency into the education system. Greater efficiency does justify higher wages. The union obviously prefers higher membership numbers over greater efficiency, because that produces more union dues, and more union dues buys more political influence.