Are Leafs Tough Enough?
- Thread starter Darts
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They have the money but no cap space.
This is now the 4th year of "The Core" (Matthews, Marner, Rielly, Andersen and Nylander) and the second year of the "Super Core" (The Core plus Tavares). Its more than enough time to actually win something. Last year they finished 3rd (barely) and lost in the 1st round (again)
While I'd say they aren't tough enough, the game certainly is changing from toughness to speed. The Leafs D is improved this year (let's not talk about last Saturday's game) which should help. It's difficult to find tough guys that are also fast and skilled. You don't want some tough guy that's great at hitting but becomes a liability if he can't skate or handle the puck.
But it's the playoffs that matter. We can only wait and see what happens.
But it's the playoffs that matter. We can only wait and see what happens.
The problem is that our speed and skill guys have no degree of toughness. Kadri had some toughness. Kapanen shows flashes of toughness from time to time.
It doesn't have to be either or. Think of Tom Wilson (who destroyed the Leafs in the playoffs 2 years ago) or Milan Lucic who has almost 200 NHL goals and seasonal totals of 30, 26, 24,20 and 23. We're still waiting for Marner and Nylander to score 30 goals in a season.
Being physically tough is not the question imo. The league isn't what it was. What's important is if they are mentally tough. Answer is no. Next question should be do they play hard? Again answer is no. They have an shitton of talent and they are young so maybe this will change but I have not seen it under this coach so far
Here is an example of a speed and skill player who also plays the game tough. He is fearless going to the net and he takes crap from no one. In 4 of his seasons he missed only one game. (Yes, he is only 5'9" 181 lbs.)
2012–13 Montreal Canadiens NHL 44 15 13 28 33 5 2 0 2 5
2013–14 Montreal Canadiens NHL 81 19 22 41 73 17 4 7 11 6
2014–15 Montreal Canadiens NHL 82 24 23 47 31 12 3 2 5 0
2015–16 Montreal Canadiens NHL 53 19 21 40 24 — — — — —
2016–17 Montreal Canadiens NHL 64 10 19 29 39 6 1 2 3 8
2017–18 Montreal Canadiens NHL 82 31 23 54 34 — — — — —
2018–19 Montreal Canadiens NHL 82 33 19 52
I tend to agree with your comment regarding the lesser importance of physical toughness in to-day's NHL. The Leafs had gotten rid of their tough guys a couple of seasons ago since fighting has been discouraged at their level to a large extent.
By far I'm not a Bruins fan but may be the Leafs should cultivate some grit into their game similar to the Bruin's model i.e.) Brad Marchand and company.... to make life miserable for the opponents' offence. Also may be the coach can take a look at how St. Louis displayed their grit and mental toughness last year?
You toss those names around like they grow on trees. Sure, it would be great to have guys like that, but since they're under multi-year contracts with other teams, who? BTW, their cap hits are 5 & 6 million a year.
Easy to say the Leafs should be tougher, but to all the keyboard/forum GMs here. Who could've the Leafs realistically acquired this summer without having to give up a lot in return? Don't forget about the salary cap.
As for Nylander, we know why he sucked last year. He'll be much better this year. Already has 1 goal and 2 assists in 3 games.
As for Marner, he lead the Leafs in point was 11th. overall in points last year. You can't complain about that. Wilson and Lucic are also 4 and 10 years older than him.
Why not talk about Saturday's game?
It's not an isolated game, they've played like this the last two years.
If you can't do it in the regular season I bet you would be harder pressed to do it in the playoffs.
Agree they are rare and it is not easy to get those guys but that is why the Capitals and Bruins won Stanley Cups and we don't. I think Lucic was available in the recent past.
Why can't our existing skill players play tough like Brendan Gallagher (post 8) or at least tougher or less soft than they are now? At the very least, the Leafs should finish their checks.
Surely, Leaf management must know the current roster lacks toughness. Why can't they draft a Lucic? The real Lucic was drafted 50th by the Bruins some years ago. Meanwhile, the Leafs drafted Nick Robertson this year. Let's hope he is a mean 5'9" SOB who strikes fear in the hearts of opposing players.
I don't think you can ask players to be what they're not.
Accumulating skill players is a good thing because they are more valuable assets and they can be traded at whatever
premium or discount necessary for other players to round out the roster as required.
Also, you need a steady pipeline of skilled guys coming in because the cap makes it harder to keep existing guys.
I 've always had confidence in this management group, I just hope they're not digging their heels in on this particular path.
They need another Uncle Leo in there, he was huge in that series against Washington.
There might be a slight discrepancy between Babcock's view and Dubas's view.
Accumulating skill players is a good thing because they are more valuable assets and they can be traded at whatever
premium or discount necessary for other players to round out the roster as required.
Also, you need a steady pipeline of skilled guys coming in because the cap makes it harder to keep existing guys.
I 've always had confidence in this management group, I just hope they're not digging their heels in on this particular path.
They need another Uncle Leo in there, he was huge in that series against Washington.
There might be a slight discrepancy between Babcock's view and Dubas's view.
Bullshit, the Leafs can get by with a modicum of toughness, they have a more immediate problem - goaltending.
Carey Price had a bad game but Hutchison shit the bed. Andresen turned 30 a few days ago, for the Leafs to have any sort success in the post season he should play 55 games max. It would be different if he was younger but at 30 he requires load management. Joseph Woll and Ian Scott need to be seasoned, they are not ready. If Hutchinson can't cut the mustard, is Neuvirth still available?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIUiQOeI_Ek
Carey Price had a bad game but Hutchison shit the bed. Andresen turned 30 a few days ago, for the Leafs to have any sort success in the post season he should play 55 games max. It would be different if he was younger but at 30 he requires load management. Joseph Woll and Ian Scott need to be seasoned, they are not ready. If Hutchinson can't cut the mustard, is Neuvirth still available?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIUiQOeI_Ek
Tough guys do not prevent skilled players from getting hit.
Example 1.
Marc Savard has his career ended by Matt Cooke on what is generally regarded as a "cheap, predatory hit".
Not only did the Boston Bruins possess a noted "tough guy" in Milan Lucic, but Lucic was on the ice, and was in fact, the player who passed the puck to Savard, positioning Marc for a devastating hit from Cooke. Good thing Boston had some toughness.
Example 1.
Marc Savard has his career ended by Matt Cooke on what is generally regarded as a "cheap, predatory hit".
Not only did the Boston Bruins possess a noted "tough guy" in Milan Lucic, but Lucic was on the ice, and was in fact, the player who passed the puck to Savard, positioning Marc for a devastating hit from Cooke. Good thing Boston had some toughness.
Toughness/grit also means being able to protect the puck and take the puck away from the other team. I don't have the team statistics handy but both Rielly and Matthews had a TA/GA ratio below 1 last year. It would be an upgrade if the Leafs can get the ratio north of 1, the further north the better.
This is like saying helmets could never eliminate head injuries so helmets are useless. I don’t think there’s another cheap shot artist as notorious as Matt Cooke, but without some physical presence and as soft as the Leafs are, they invite more cheap shots and that could potentially lead to more injuries.
Boston had Chara. On the ice too. Did not deter Kadri from taking cheap shot. Twice. Got suspended both times also
By "tough" I don't necessarily mean smashing the opposing player through the boards. It means playing the game tough.
That is why I like to look at the TA/GA statistics when available. Taking the puck away from an opposing player or protecting the puck from an opposing player is a huge asset. Here are just 4 examples of players who have good to great TA/GA ratios.
Ryan O'Reilly 2.8
Mark Stone 2.0
Mark Scheifele 1.5
Johnathan Toews 1.4
Playing tough also means taking a hit to to make a play.
Playing tough means going to the opposing net and/or standing there.
That is why I like to look at the TA/GA statistics when available. Taking the puck away from an opposing player or protecting the puck from an opposing player is a huge asset. Here are just 4 examples of players who have good to great TA/GA ratios.
Ryan O'Reilly 2.8
Mark Stone 2.0
Mark Scheifele 1.5
Johnathan Toews 1.4
Playing tough also means taking a hit to to make a play.
Playing tough means going to the opposing net and/or standing there.
