Is Hockey Still King in Toronto?

black booty lover said:

Not to mention you completely dismissed the Blue Jays for some reason.

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There may be some dedicated Jays fans here but there's no way they're close to the Leafs.
Just look at the World Series years, we had to fight to get tickets to a game.
As soon as they became uncompetitive they couldn't give tickets away.
Not much different post Battista, Encarnacion era.

mellowjello said:

There may be some dedicated Jays fans here but there's no way they're close to the Leafs.
Just look at the World Series years, we had to fight to get tickets to a game.
As soon as they became uncompetitive they couldn't give tickets away.
Not much different post Battista, Encarnacion era.

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Hypothetically, if the Raptors were to go into decline for a 5-7 year period, would they still be selling out at the end or would they go the way of the Jays, with ever decreasing attendance? No way that MLSE would be as bad as Rogers ownership/management has been so I doubt it would decline as much but it could be a similar dynamic. On the other hand it took decades of absolute unfathomable ineptitude for Leafs' games to not be sell outs.

I suspect that the glow of the Raps would wear off sooner than it had taken for it to happen to the Leafs. It is obviously all speculation but I though I'd ask the question regardless.

black booty lover said:

Read post #62 by Don Draper in this thread and you'll see why your response is inaccurate.


Not to mention you completely dismissed the Blue Jays for some reason.

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One person’s opinion doesn’t make another’s inaccurate. Your poll is confined to terb members’ opinions and not a true public poll. All we have are somewhat biased opinions and at least mine is based on figures of terb discussion participants.

Admittedly I’ve been paying much less attention to the Jays for the last few years after the management change. Baseball is a summer sports. The Raptors and Leafs seasons run nearly concurrently through winter so they’re more into media and fans competition for attention.

shack said:

How many kids in Toronto are registered for hockey vs. basketball?
How many people watch junior hockey vs junior basketball.
Watch the Marlies
Who commands higher ticket prices and still has a waiting list, Leafs or Raps.
Who gets higher TV ratings?
Who gets higher advertising dollars?

There are lots of indicators that say hockey is still number one.

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Can't answer all these but youth hockey is reportedly in a decline. Many point to the high expense it is for equipment.
From a junior/minor league perspective, Basketball has always been different, but it's changing. Traditionally you would play in the NCAA and if you didn't make the league you would play overseas. It's only until recently the NBA has embraced a minor league system and the Raptors 905 squad is quite popular for a team formed in 2015.

Also, Youth Basketball in Canada is making major serious strides. We had a record 6 Canadians drafted this year. Canada is becoming a very serious country for talent.

Ticket Prices, Waiting Lists, Ratings, Ad Revenue? All these things are what this thread is about. The Leafs have the history, but what about the future? Who's money brought in that new LG Screen outside ScotiaBank Arena? Is it still just ML Square or do we add /Jurassic Park now? Which team has a high valued?

The indicators are not as clear as we may think.

curr3n_c1000 said:

The indicators are not as clear as we may think.

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Here's a hypothetical one that would be fun. What if both teams went on championship runs concurrently? Both have great regular seasons and then both win it all. They'd basically be playing at the same time under similar conditions. Would the city be more excited for one than the other or maybe they'd be viewed as a single entity. Maybe one day we will get a chance to find out but that would be a good litmus test.

Last night is an example of what I was trying to say in this thread. One team is over performing while the other is under performing.

If things like this continue, you can't tell me there won't be a point when the balance of power shifts.

curr3n_c1000 said:

Last night is an example of what I was trying to say in this thread. One team is over performing while the other is under performing.

If things like this continue, you can't tell me there won't be a point when the balance of power shifts.

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Funny, I was going to post the same.
I'm basically a hockey fan and bandwagon supporter for other sorts.

But flipping between games, it was such a positive, fun, vibe watching the Raps.
I'm finding the Leafs depressing to follow, and I grew up bleeding Blue and White.

mellowjello said:

I know I'm really late coming to the party but the corporate cloud that hangs over the Leafs is really starting to bother me.
The way they play feels corporate, the management comes across as super corporate, seeing all those empty platinum
seats at the beginning of the last two periods is really sickening.
The Raptors are under the same umbrella and the $$$ are bigger, but it doesn't come across the same way.

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In agreement with your point about corporate culture, but it's also noted at the Raptors game last night there were an awful lot of gold seats looking empy by the 3rd quarter. They missed a pretty entertaining basketball game.

Why does talk about a second Toronto NHL team keep coming up when some/many people think hockey is in decline?

https://theleafsnation.com/2019/11/...team-while-great-in-theory-will-never-happen/

I would say TFC is more popular than the Leafs. Have you seen the passion at the games!?

TomFord1980 said:

I would say TFC is more popular than the Leafs. Have you seen the passion at the games!?

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No .

If and when the leafs win a Stanley cup I'm not so sure there will be anything left of Toronto. Lol.

Joking aside when the raptors looked like they might actually do it, there was a large movement of bandwagon jumpers. I figure that in any sport in Toronto we would see a similar thing.

There are factors even now that don't make hockey king in the 416/905 area.

The sport is too expensive, seen as the sport of white privilege among younger and Canadians of colour. The equipment is over engineered with too much hard plastic. Middle men are mooching of the developmental leagues, parents are paying too much for red tape. And the ever present threat of severe injury including concussion.

And the way hockey is marketed rings hollow. Linking hockey with patriotism doesn't work, playing the sport doesn't make kids better human beings. Fuck that, I know enough pick up hockey players who drink excessively and ask me for money. The adverts they run reinforce privilege bordering on white supremacy. And finally how do you promote hockey to younger and/or Canadians of colour when you have a racist 80 something blowhard as your main promoter.

For the last 3 years I've watched more Raptors games than Leafs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IixF9CJ0NWY

Insidious Von said:

There are factors even now that don't make hockey king in the 416/905 area.

The sport is too expensive, seen as the sport of white privilege among younger and Canadians of colour. The equipment is over engineered with too much hard plastic. Middle men are mooching of the developmental leagues, parents are paying too much for red tape. And the ever present threat of severe injury including concussion.

And the way hockey is marketed rings hollow. Linking hockey with patriotism doesn't work, playing the sport doesn't make kids better human beings. Fuck that, I know enough pick up hockey players who drink excessively and ask me for money. The adverts they run reinforce privilege bordering on white supremacy. And finally how do you promote hockey to younger and/or Canadians of colour when you have a racist 80 something blowhard as your main promoter.

For the last 3 years I've watched more Raptors games than Leafs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IixF9CJ0NWY

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I was at a Mississauga sports bar on Saturday! Ironically enough there were more TV's with the Raps game on vs. Leafs game.

In Toronto alone, the Raptors are more popular. The Leafs get support from an older legacy demographic, Torontonians, plus diehards from surrounding suburbs. The Raptors and basketball is the future sport of Toronto, if not already.

I can go down to Scotiabank Arena and get Raptor tickets at cost price on game day. While Leafs tickets I have to get from a scalper for an inflated price.

Let's compare ticket prices on Ticketmaster today, both are similar seats with an obstructed view.

Nov 6 Raptors vs Kings cheapest seat (not standing room) $57.82

Nov 5 Leafs vs Kings cheapest seat (not standing room) $77.88

This says something.

But i don't doubt basketball and soccer are gaining popularity in Canada.

You can gauge it from sports talk radio, it's still about the Leafs.
Leafs are part of a bigger cultural backdrop, hockey.
Raps may have gotten more popular, but basketball doesn't touch hockey in scope.

Yikes. Is Hockey still around? Just playing. I knew of a few immigrants who tried to force themselves to like it in order to fit in, but most eventually they threw in the towel and stuck with the other more widely played and watched sports.

Canada may want to accept more immigrants from the 'winter counties' over the next couple of decades to keep the hockey love alive.