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‘Transgender’ athletes have ‘intolerable’ advantage over real women, new study....

basketcase

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Semenya has won. Renee Richards did well. I won't mention Bruce Jenner. LOL
Semenya is not a transgender person.

Renee was never a champion and was at best 20th best in the world despite her "intolerable" advantage. She was not an example of someone gaming the system. Someone would have to either have the most intense competitive drive ever or truly feel they are the wrong gender to go through sex reassignment surgery.
 

basketcase

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Did you miss the video I posted right over your head? A woman with a cracked skull, I would say that is not "a non-issue" . But maybe you like to see a woman get beaten by a man?
Are you saying that this was the only fight with a orbital fracture? Here's the exact same injury from the UFC's March event in London (the woman with the "fractured skull" actually won).
https://talksport.com/sport/mma/513279/ufc-london-molly-mccann-gruesome-injury-win/

Another nasty result in a women's fight.
https://middleeasy.com/mma-news/pic-brazil-worst-head-injury-mma/


It is worth noting the scientific/medical consensus is that 12-24 months of hormone therapy is enough to eliminate the unfair parts
 

JuanGoodman

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Are you saying that this was the only fight with a orbital fracture? Here's the exact same injury from the UFC's March event in London (the woman with the "fractured skull" actually won).
https://talksport.com/sport/mma/513279/ufc-london-molly-mccann-gruesome-injury-win/

Another nasty result in a women's fight.
https://middleeasy.com/mma-news/pic-brazil-worst-head-injury-mma/


It is worth noting the scientific/medical consensus is that 12-24 months of hormone therapy is enough to eliminate the unfair parts
As I said before, I'm old school and I do not like to see a woman get beaten by man. It doesn't matter how it is packaged. It would be completely different if it was two women fighting. I know I'm looking through binary lenses of gender, but I can't help it.
 

The Oracle

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On the slopes of Mount Parnassus, Greece
It is worth noting the scientific/medical consensus is that 12-24 months of hormone therapy is enough to eliminate the unfair parts
It won't eliminate the fact that men have larger hearts than women giving them increased cardiovascular capabilities. It won't eliminate that men have more fast twitch muscles fibres than women. It won't eliminate the fact that men are usually taller and have greater bone density than women.

As I've said all the hormone therapy in the world isn't going to change that. That's basic physiology right there.
 

scourge

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The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal. – Aristotle
 

oldjones

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Thank you for the information. I'm glad that it was not a life threatening injury. And I'm also glad that Fox is no longer fighting against women.

This thread started about transgender athletes having an advantage over women, but it took a turn when oldjones introduced the notion that men and women could compete against each other if only some rules of the game were tweaked to make it an even playing field. Somehow we couldn't even agree on the fact that obviously men are stronger than women and that it would take a hell of a lot of tweaking to make it possible for man and a woman to compete in any full contact event. The outcome would still be unacceptable. It would either be a smaller, weaker man getting beaten down by a woman which would be more of a circus act than a sport event, or a woman would be beaten by a man. In witch case, I don't think too many people would find it entertaining.

My question as to why even consider such a idea, still remain unanswered.
I'm sorry for not getting to this sooner: Your statement — which I bolded — is entirely incorrect. My post was the second (#2), right after the OP. His post was an 'title-alert' about a scientific article in the Journal of medical Ethics. Typically he linked a biased second-hand account, not the original. He followed the link with his personal opinion, no reference to either report. But he didn't start a post about his opinion, everybody has one. He started a thread about the study.

I introduced nothing, and turned nothing aside. I merely quoted that same study which his post suggested was so important. Here's the quote again: “ … the existing male/female categories in sport should be abandoned in favour of a more nuanced approach satisfying both inclusion and fairness.”. The OP wanted us to know about that, and I helped him along.

I have yet to read or hear a serious proposal that any and all trans-gendered athletes — leaving definitions aside for the moment — should be allowed to compete without distinction or difference in events for the gender of their choice. When there is such a case being made, that would be the place for the argument you describe. If you or the OP found such a case, you might post about it here on TERB.

The individual instances so far, where some accommodation has been made, have followed the 'ranking by size/ability' model that might well fall within those nuances the authors imagined as a general case. It's been almost four decades since Justine Blaney. Surely we've evolved since then.

You asked "…why even consider" making "…it possible for man and a woman to compete in any full contact event", and complained you haven't been answered. Apparently you've forgotten the full-contact idea was yours, and your example was MMA. Why you proposed we consider that spectacle only you can say. For my part I'm still waiting for answers/responses/counter-arguments to the various ways I've suggested that women and men could compete on an even basis.

All you've offered is your opinion, which is solidly against some imagined thing, that no one I know of has proposed on any serious basis. Fine, another opinion heard from. I have one too, but it's about wasting time on-non issues and no facts.

See ya.
 
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Insidious Von

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I stayed out of this discussion since I've already mentioned Melissa Bishop in another thread. I watched the Rogers Cup, Simona Halep vs Jennifer Brady and I'm on the side of not allowing transgender athletes to compete against women.

Simona Halep is the current Wimbledon Champion and the best defensive tennis player in the world. But she has her problems against big powerful girls. Jennifer Brady is just that, taking Halep to a third set tiebreaker. Brady looks like Bruce Jenner if he were an actual girl. Her weakness is her calves are not well defined. If she had Jenner's calves, Halep would have been lucky to win five games against her.

And transgender athletes don't have the particular set of problems that Halep had before becoming the best female tennis player in the world.

 

Insidious Von

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She looks like a female Bruce Jenner to me.

As you can see her calves are spindly, her quickness will be challenged until she develops them. Eugenie Bouchard has the same problem, small calves. That's why her game deteriorated after her 2014 breakthrough.

 

basketcase

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It won't eliminate the fact that men have larger hearts than women giving them increased cardiovascular capabilities. It won't eliminate that men have more fast twitch muscles fibres than women. It won't eliminate the fact that men are usually taller and have greater bone density than women.

As I've said all the hormone therapy in the world isn't going to change that. That's basic physiology right there.
Hmm. Those medical opinions must be another of those scientific conspiracies like climate change then. Let me know when trans women start to dominate sports.
 
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JuanGoodman

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but it took a turn when oldjones introduced the notion that men and women could compete against each other if only some rules of the game were tweaked to make it an even playing field.


I'm sorry for not getting to this sooner: Your statement — which I bolded — is entirely incorrect. My post was the second (#2), right after the OP. His post was an 'title-alert' about a scientific article in the Journal of medical Ethics. Typically he linked a biased second-hand account, not the original. He followed the link with his personal opinion, no reference to either report. But he didn't start a post about his opinion, everybody has one. He started a thread about the study.

I introduced nothing, and turned nothing aside. I merely quoted that same study which his post suggested was so important. Here's the quote again: “ … the existing male/female categories in sport should be abandoned in favour of a more nuanced approach satisfying both inclusion and fairness.”. The OP wanted us to know about that, and I helped him along.

I have yet to read or hear a serious proposal that any and all trans-gendered athletes — leaving definitions aside for the moment — should be allowed to compete without distinction or difference in events for the gender of their choice. When there is such a case being made, that would be the place for the argument you describe. If you or the OP found such a case, you might post about it here on TERB.

The individual instances so far, where some accommodation has been made, have followed the 'ranking by size/ability' model that might well fall within those nuances the authors imagined as a general case. It's been almost four decades since Justine Blaney. Surely we've evolved since then.

You asked "…why even consider" making "…it possible for man and a woman to compete in any full contact event", and complained you haven't been answered. Apparently you've forgotten the full-contact idea was yours, and your example was MMA. Why you proposed we consider that spectacle only you can say. For my part I'm still waiting for answers/responses/counter-arguments to the various ways I've suggested that women and men could compete on an even basis.

All you've offered is your opinion, which is solidly against some imagined thing, that no one I know of has proposed on any serious basis. Fine, another opinion heard from. I have one too, but it's about wasting time on-non issues and no facts.

See ya.
I'm as confused as I ever hope to be. Which one is it? Did you suggest men and women can or can't compete? :yield::yield::yield:

Also you misunderstood the study. Big Sleazy is absolutely correct. You missed the scientific conclusion of the scientific study, witch is the most important part of a scientific study:

“We conclude that the advantage to transwomen afforded by the IOC guidelines is an intolerable unfairness,”
 

oldjones

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but it took a turn when oldjones introduced the notion that men and women could compete against each other if only some rules of the game were tweaked to make it an even playing field.
oldjones said:
[TERB doesn't do quotes within quotes, the original's #66, Juan's version with added emphasis, is in #70 just above. The critical bit is:]… I'm sorry for not getting to this sooner: Your statement — which I bolded — is entirely incorrect. My post was the second (#2), right after the OP….
I'm as confused as I ever hope to be. Which one is it? Did you suggest men and women can or can't compete? :yield::yield::yield:

Also you misunderstood the study. Big Sleazy is absolutely correct. You missed the scientific conclusion of the scientific study, witch is the most important part of a scientific study:

“We conclude that the advantage to transwomen afforded by the IOC guidelines is an intolerable unfairness,”
I underlined the bits of your quoted post that are directly contrary to each other, and ignore what I've been saying all along: We'd have to make the competition even by matching opponents — typically by size and skill levels.

I certainly did not miss, nor did I misunderstand the study. The OP misrepresented it, as you do here, by quoting just one self-evident and unimportant finding, out of context: That's why I wrote post #2, the first reply he got, and have said the same things ever since.

People have always evened out natural and acquired differences to make competitions more fair and more interesting, as you have said yourself in this thread. There is no reason we can't do the same to arrange gender-neutral events. As the study says. And as I tire of repeating.

Only you want to talk about imaginary free-for-all competitions between trans-gendered and male or female athletes. Everyone else thinks they're not possible or fair under current rules, as the study says.

No one else seems interested in re-hashing long dead quotes tarted up with added emphasis either. I'm well aware of your position, as you are of mine, however inconsistently you may re-state it. There's no need for more replies.
 
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rubbertugger

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Nonsense. We have all sorts of ways in all sorts of fields, especially sports, to allow differently talented/skilled/abled people to compete fairly. That's why welterweights don't box with heavyweights. The most common such sport is golf. One reason its system of handicapping was invented, was precisely to do what you say is impossible. To make competition between men and women possible. But men like it too.

In fact that is exactly the purpose of all those elimination heats and preliminaries that TV never shows, to ensure that the finalists are evenly and fairly matched so the competitions for champion are exciting. As long as they are, who cares what 'race' or gender's involved? They're as irrelevant as language, hairstyle or favourite movie.

If you care, why?

So much wrong in one post
 

oldjones

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So much wrong in one post
I appreciate you noting that long-ago post, please don't think I'm ignoring your contribution, if I don't respond.

In the three pages since, no one has offered a persuasive reason to change the answers I gave Juan and TeeJay, when they replied to the same statement with actual reasons and arguments. Do consider those my responses to you as well.

But since you offered only the least convincing viewpoint anyone can, I suspect discussion's not your purpose.
 

TeeJay

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west gta

frankcastle

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Late the the party.

Ill say this size matters in most sports.

Whether you are XX or XY matters as well.

Where things get hazy is when you have organizations like the IOC saying a XY transperspn who wants to compete with XX athletes must test below a certain level of testosterone for over 1 year.

So i cant say i know enough about what a man taking drugs to boost esteogen and reduce esteogen for a year would look and perform like.
 

frankcastle

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Feb 4, 2003
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Also i think its important to point out that there are different levels of gender politics and to claim that this is a left idea is not quite correct. Id argue that a person on the left is probsbly more suppoetive of trans people but its the loony/far left that want trans men competing with women.
 

The Oracle

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Late the the party.

Ill say this size matters in most sports.

Whether you are XX or XY matters as well.

Where things get hazy is when you have organizations like the IOC saying a XY transperspn who wants to compete with XX athletes must test below a certain level of testosterone for over 1 year.

So i cant say i know enough about what a man taking drugs to boost esteogen and reduce esteogen for a year would look and perform like.
Men have larger hearts than women and larger more dense bones. No amount of hormone manipulation is going to change that.

It's funny that you never see women who transition to men trying to compete in men's sports do you? And the reason is simple they couldn't come close to being competitive.

The whole concept of opposition to letting trans women competing in women's sports being transphobic is ridiculous. It's all about fair play.

The SJW's are just pushing their victimhood agenda.....Truth be known they would have little interest in sports as a rule.
 
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