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Phoenix Payroll Fiasco

shakenbake

Senior Turgid Member
Nov 13, 2003
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www.vafanculo.it
Another fuckup by the Trudeau Liberals.
Wrong. It was started by the Harper Conservatives. The Liberals agreed to implement it after the Harper Conservatives decided on it, like in 2009, much earlier before they were voted out of office. The Conservatives did all they could to inflict damage to civil servants. It was a trademark of Tony Clement and Harper. The Conservatives also reduced many essential services, such as investigative forces and resources of the CRA against tax fraud. The list goes on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_pay_system

Phoenix was originally planned in 2009 by Public Works to replace the federal government's 40-year old pay system. At the same time, the government hoped to centralize payroll employees in one place, as opposed to having them scattered throughout individual departments.[SUP][1][/SUP] The hope was that a new, more centralized and automated system would lower labour requirements and reduce costs. The set-up costs of the system at that time were estimated at $310 million, with the system coming online in 2015.[SUP][2][/SUP] The system was expected to save $78 million a year.[SUP][3][/SUP] In August 2010, the Prime Minister of the time, Stephen Harper, announced that the new pay system would be located in Miramichi, New Brunswick, as compensation for the closing of the long-gun registry centre in that city.[SUP][4][/SUP] In June 2011, IBM won the sole-source contract to set up the system, using PeopleSoft software; the original contract was for $5.7 million, but IBM was eventually paid $185 million.[SUP][5][/SUP] In March 2014, in an attempt to save money, the government took over responsibility for Phoenix training design and execution from IBM, adopting a ‘train the trainer’ approach rather than follow IBM’s recommended system.[SUP][6][/SUP]

In May 2015, IBM made the recommendation that government delay its planned rollout of Phoenix due to critical problems.[SUP][7][/SUP] In June 2015, before Phoenix was launched, some federal employees complained about not being paid, and there were reports that the Miramachi pay centre employees were overwhelmed.[SUP][8][/SUP] The Auditor General's report found that in June 2015, Public Services and Procurement Canada cancelled a pilot to test Phoenix in a single department to assess whether Phoenix was ready for government wide use.[SUP][9][/SUP]
 

Darts

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2017
23,061
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Not to brag but early in my career I supervised a department of grade 13 clerks who did the payroll using Excel spreadsheets. It worked fine and didn't cost anywhere close to a billion dollars.

BTW: Three and a half year into his mandate, Trudeau with a majority can't keep blaming the previous government. Plus, the Canadian garbage is still in the Philippines. These should not be unsolvable issues.
 

bver_hunter

Well-known member
Nov 5, 2005
27,331
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Wrong. It was started by the Harper Conservatives. The Liberals agreed to implement it after the Harper Conservatives decided on it, like in 2009, much earlier before they were voted out of office. The Conservatives did all they could to inflict damage to civil servants. It was a trademark of Tony Clement and Harper. The Conservatives also reduced many essential services, such as investigative forces and resources of the CRA against tax fraud. The list goes on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_pay_system

Phoenix was originally planned in 2009 by Public Works to replace the federal government's 40-year old pay system. At the same time, the government hoped to centralize payroll employees in one place, as opposed to having them scattered throughout individual departments.[SUP][1][/SUP] The hope was that a new, more centralized and automated system would lower labour requirements and reduce costs. The set-up costs of the system at that time were estimated at $310 million, with the system coming online in 2015.[SUP][2][/SUP] The system was expected to save $78 million a year.[SUP][3][/SUP] In August 2010, the Prime Minister of the time, Stephen Harper, announced that the new pay system would be located in Miramichi, New Brunswick, as compensation for the closing of the long-gun registry centre in that city.[SUP][4][/SUP] In June 2011, IBM won the sole-source contract to set up the system, using PeopleSoft software; the original contract was for $5.7 million, but IBM was eventually paid $185 million.[SUP][5][/SUP] In March 2014, in an attempt to save money, the government took over responsibility for Phoenix training design and execution from IBM, adopting a ‘train the trainer’ approach rather than follow IBM’s recommended system.[SUP][6][/SUP]

In May 2015, IBM made the recommendation that government delay its planned rollout of Phoenix due to critical problems.[SUP][7][/SUP] In June 2015, before Phoenix was launched, some federal employees complained about not being paid, and there were reports that the Miramachi pay centre employees were overwhelmed.[SUP][8][/SUP] The Auditor General's report found that in June 2015, Public Services and Procurement Canada cancelled a pilot to test Phoenix in a single department to assess whether Phoenix was ready for government wide use.[SUP][9][/SUP]
This was a true out and out screw up by the Harper Conservatives that spent millions of dollars and scarped the system that was on place. Yet the right wing will blame this Government for everything under the sun. Another screwed up inheritance from the conservatives!!
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,495
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Not to brag but early in my career I supervised a department of grade 13 clerks who did the payroll using Excel spreadsheets. It worked fine and didn't cost anywhere close to a billion dollars.

BTW: Three and a half year into his mandate, Trudeau with a majority can't keep blaming the previous government. Plus, the Canadian garbage is still in the Philippines. These should not be unsolvable issues.
Not to brag, but when I was a Grade 13 summer student working at DBS in Ottawa, rooms full of us calculated the Dominion's statistics on hand-cranked Friden machines. And back long before those mechanical wonders, payrolls were done by Bob Cratchit clerks with quill-pens. Quite successfully.

If you insist on the idiocy of blaming one person for this massive screw-up then Trudeau has to wear Failure to Fix It. But Harper's definitely the one who spent three years Screwing the Whole Thing Up in the first place. Sorta like some PM of the past might have decided all those little ships bringing immigrants from Ireland were inefficient, and from now on everyone would have to arrive on one enormous Titanic. Built right here at Davie shipyard in Quebec, for the RCN. What could go wrong?

What do you think Li'l Justin should have done? Pulled the plug in Miramichi? When? Replacing it with what?

Always remembering that from the point of view of those being paid, you owe them from the moment they finished their day, and even waiting to the end of the week or fortnight to be paid is just a courtesy they extend for your convenience. Which means any new Phoenix must rise from the ashes of the old, fully functioning in just a few days. But meantime, if you have to, you drag out the abacuses, and write cheques by hand. If that's what it takes, to keep the pitchforks and torches off Parliament Hill.

Which is roughly what they're doing, and why it's no wonder they're trying to fix the mess Harper left them, not just ordering up a new one.
 

Jiffy Pop

Active member
May 6, 2003
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Ottawa
Garrett's explanation is almost spot on. I am located in Ottawa and this system was being tested in a few departments and not working properly. Government was advised not to roll it out but did so anyway. The one thing I am not sure about is why the switch to Phoenix, the other system was working.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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General consensus is the Trudeau Liberals forced this in too soon, and against recommendations.

As for Harper, Phoenix was likely a good idea. However, it just shows the government is lousy in building anything. They can't even be a good drug dealer.

The real issue is the complexity of payroll in the government. It is like a thousand small companies because there are different rules and fiefdoms. If you do not change that, any system you implement will be massively complicated and "custom". The only winner here is IBM, who keep billing and billing.

No company would operate like this. They would consolidate and force efficiencies. The government is incapable of this, for a number of reasons (lack of strong leadership being one of them).
No company is as complex as the government. Those that play in a similarly big ballkpark — albeit with far fewer players filling way fewer different positions — are too smart than to try to pay everyone out of a single office in one small rural city.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,495
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38
Garrett's explanation is almost spot on. I am located in Ottawa and this system was being tested in a few departments and not working properly. Government was advised not to roll it out but did so anyway. The one thing I am not sure about is why the switch to Phoenix, the other system was working.
Because among certain pols who have never managed anything, there's a naive belief that only they are smart enough to see the enormous economies of scale that the people doing the work are blind to. That's why Harper imagined one giant theoretical system had to be better/cheaper than a whole whack of efficient, right-sized payment systems that had ironed out their bugs as they grew. It's the same dumb-ass smugness that convinced an ex-school trustee that only he was smarty enough to see one enormous mega-city had to be better that a bunch of small cities — like the only one he knew anything about.
 

Boober69

Well-known member
Feb 23, 2012
6,722
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This was a true out and out screw up by the Harper Conservatives that spent millions of dollars and scarped the system that was on place. Yet the right wing will blame this Government for everything under the sun. Another screwed up inheritance from the conservatives!!
You mean how Liberals blame Ford for everything he inherited? And then go back 15 years to Harris, completely overlooking the 15 years they were in power? Is that what you mean? Sounded familiar so I thought I would ask.
 

Darts

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2017
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Companies can bridge multiple foreign economies, currencies, and legal systems and do not have these problems. They also do not have unions mandating ridiculous rules who will whine over any change. Many companies outsource payroll as they know how to fit into that model (and take steps so they do)
You have to take what OJ says with a grain of salt. He may be old but he does sound very naive at times.

Agree with what you say, especially the part about multi-nationals. Their employees seem to be properly paid and on time.
 

bver_hunter

Well-known member
Nov 5, 2005
27,331
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You mean how Liberals blame Ford for everything he inherited? And then go back 15 years to Harris, completely overlooking the 15 years they were in power? Is that what you mean? Sounded familiar so I thought I would ask.
Have the Liberals taken over from Ford??? You mean how Ford is blaming the Liberals for everything that he inherited, yes / no?? I think that you are confused!!

Maybe you should read this link where IBM have made it clear who were really responsible for the manner in which the Phoenix Payroll System was churned out!!

https://www.itworldcanada.com/artic...ives-over-phoenix-payroll-training-cbc/386848
 

Darts

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2017
23,061
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You mean how Liberals blame Ford for everything he inherited? And then go back 15 years to Harris, completely overlooking the 15 years they were in power? Is that what you mean? Sounded familiar so I thought I would ask.
Guys, let's be blunt. It's all Trump's fault. LOL!
 

shakenbake

Senior Turgid Member
Nov 13, 2003
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Durham Region, Den of Iniquity
www.vafanculo.it
Garrett's explanation is almost spot on. I am located in Ottawa and this system was being tested in a few departments and not working properly. Government was advised not to roll it out but did so anyway. The one thing I am not sure about is why the switch to Phoenix, the other system was working.
The decision was made by the conservative government, before the 2015 election.
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
59,732
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...

BTW: Three and a half year into his mandate, Trudeau with a majority can't keep blaming the previous government. ...
But in this case, it was Harper's project you are complaining about. If Trudeau had cancelled it you would be complaining that he wasted money by changing a system that Harper just implemented.

p.s. Do you really think the PM is the one deciding which payroll system to use?
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
79,716
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But in this case, it was Harper's project you are complaining about. If Trudeau had cancelled it you would be complaining that he wasted money by changing a system that Harper just implemented.

p.s. Do you really think the PM is the one deciding which payroll system to use?
The righties are all upset because Trudeau didn't come in and immediately cancel a conservative program?
 

shakenbake

Senior Turgid Member
Nov 13, 2003
7,598
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113
Durham Region, Den of Iniquity
www.vafanculo.it
He's most likely getting paid on a timely basis. Why would he care about anyone else?
Maybe a different payroll system for parliamentarians. However, you are evading the truth that it was the Harper government that went ahead with the implementation of Phoenix, BEFORE the 2015 election and against IBM's recommendation, and without testing the new 'system' out, against the supplier's recommendation. Trudeau inherited the problem, plain and simple. It takes a hell of a lot to change a system, once it is started. It took from 2009 to 2015, six years to change over to Phoenix. Do you think that a new government can change things in much less than six years?
 

Jiffy Pop

Active member
May 6, 2003
719
35
28
Ottawa
You guys seem to know more about the timeline for this. I could of swore it was under the liberals that the system was rolled out across the board. Shakenbake the system was tested out before full implementation but was not working properly. I am in the camp of people who believe that 99% of the time government cannot do anything on time or on budget or without major screw-ups and never any accountability for this. Does not matter if it is liberal or conservative.
 

Jiffy Pop

Active member
May 6, 2003
719
35
28
Ottawa
Shakenbake I just talked to my cousin about Phoenix and she told me it was under Trudeau that the system started across the board. She is Federal employee and a union rep. She could still be wrong but I doubt it. She also hates both major parties with a passion and is super left wing and green in her views.
 

Darts

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2017
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She is correct. Most of these posters are so tied up in their party allegiance they will contort themselves rather than admit to the simple truth.

No matter what the timeline, what is Trudeau doing about it today? Good leadership solves problems, no matter where they originated. He has no answers beyond throwing money around (easy to do with other people's money). This is just another example. In this case, it is painfully obvious more money is not the answer.
Pissing away tax dollars is no substitute for competence.
 
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