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Lawyer complains about phone/computer siezed at border...

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mandrill

mandrill

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rhuarc29 said:
What, because of the attorney/client privilege thing? I think he has a very valid point, considering border services have acknowledged their agents are supposed to avoid anything that may infringe on it. In practice though, I highly doubt they do any such thing.
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He complained about solicitor-client privilege, which I would do as well if some government asshole tried to seize my phone. And with good reason. 90% of the material on my phone is client conversations!

His problem is that normal constitutional protections do not apply at the border. While CBSA has to have reasonable and probable grounds to strip search you and detain you and they have to give you your rights, anything short of that isn't protected. It's the old "crossing the border is a privilege, not a right and if you don't like it, go back to the US right now" idea.

CBSA is going to say that the only way they can catch people who want to work illegally, pull immigration marriage scams, etc is to seize their phones and read them. It's not likely a returning lawyer is going to be doing ANY of that stuff and that might be is best weapon in the court case. At the very least, there might be a direction that people who clearly are NOT involved in scams do not get searched - especially if they are lawyers with privileged material on their phones!

BTW I clean off my phone when I go to the States. All escort info and texts are deleted. My hobbying email is removed. All titillating escort nudies are gone. The chances of getting a secondary search are small. But try explaining to Aunt Agatha and Cousin Bill why you're not going to her wedding anniversary in Lauderdale this year because US border control found sexual material on your electronics.
 
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jcpro

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oagre said:

He complained about solicitor-client privilege, which I would do as well if some government asshole tried to seize my phone. And with good reason. 90% of the material on my phone is client conversations!

His problem is that normal constitutional protections do not apply at the border. While CBSA has to have reasonable and probable grounds to strip search you and detain you and they have to give you your rights, anything short of that isn't protected. It's the old "crossing the border is a privilege, not a right and if you don't like it, go back to the US right now" idea.

CBSA is going to say that the only way they can catch people who want to work illegally, pull immigration marriage scams, etc is to seize their phones and read them. It's not likely a returning lawyer is going to be going ANY of that stuff and that might be is best weapon in the court case. At the very least, there might be a direction that people who clearly are NOT involved in scams do not get searched - especially if they are lawyers with privileged material on their phones!

BTW I clean off my phone when I go to the States. All escort info and texts are deleted. My hobbying email is removed. All titillating escort nudies are gone. The chances of getting a secondary search are small. But try explaining to Aunt Agatha and Cousin Bill why you're not going to her wedding anniversary in Lauderdale this year because US border control found sexual material on your electronics.
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The lawyer in question is a Canadian, returning to Canada. Entering Canada for a Canadian citizen is a right enshrined in the Constitution.
 
mandrill

mandrill

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jcpro said:
The lawyer in question is a Canadian, returning to Canada. Entering Canada for a Canadian citizen is a right enshrined in the Constitution.
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Yes. See my post.

Of course, you can come back. But border crossings have reduced constitutional protection. They don't have to have reasonable and probable grounds to search your stuff as you cross the border.

If you are suggesting that searching this poor fuck's phone was bullshit, I am tempted to agree. Again, set out in my post above.
 
D

drlove

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Oct 14, 2001
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The doctor is in
oagre said:
Yes. See my post.

Of course, you can come back. But border crossings have reduced constitutional protection. They don't have to have reasonable and probable grounds to search your stuff as you cross the border.

If you are suggesting that searching this poor fuck's phone was bullshit, I am tempted to agree. Again, set out in my post above.
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So what would happen if an escort’s phone was searched and border security found compromising info on her clients?
 
mandrill

mandrill

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drlove said:
So what would happen if an escort’s phone was searched and border security found compromising info on her clients?
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In Ontario, there is a policy not to enforce Bill C-36. Not sure about anywhere else.

Most escorts rigorously clean off their phones before going to the US. If US Border Control finds evidence of working in the States or in the sex trade anywhere, they will bar the girl from ever going there again. So most girls are going to have clean phones when they RETURN to Canada as well.
 
D

drlove

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oagre said:

In Ontario, there is a policy not to enforce Bill C-36. Not sure about anywhere else.

Most escorts rigorously clean off their phones before going to the US. If US Border Control finds evidence of working in the States or in the sex trade anywhere, they will bar the girl from ever going there again. So most girls are going to have clean phones when they RETURN to Canada as well.
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I was referring to trips overseas - Sweden to be exact.
 
mandrill

mandrill

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drlove said:
I was referring to trips overseas - Sweden to be exact.
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Err, if you haven't committed a crime in Sweden, why would you be concerned with what the Swedish authorities find or don't find??

Criminal law is based on national jurisdiction (or state jurisdiction in the US). To arrest you, you have to have done something on THEIR territory. If you have never been to Sweden, why would you worry?
 
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Mable

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drlove said:
So what would happen if an escort’s phone was searched and border security found compromising info on her clients?
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Interesting question! Escorts do not have any form of legal privilege. They are now committing a criminal offence if engaged in prostitution (notwithstanding the statutory waiver) so, if the border agents find evidence of this activity on the phone it may well be that they are duty bound to refer the matter to the authorities, Canadian and American, if say the lady was coming back from the U.S. All kinds of interesting legal scenarios here.
 
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Frankfooter

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Interesting story about a drug bust that found $3 million in cash in a BC low income home that's tied to $1.2 billion Australian drug bust.

It all started from seeing photos on someone's phone during an Australian border police airport inspection.

Millions allegedly found in subsidized home of B.C. retiree tied to $1.2B Aussie drug bust

According to the B.C. Supreme Court documents, the civil forfeiture claim against both Guajardo and his daughter is the latest chapter in a story that began in June 2018 when Guajardo and another man were questioned as they attempted to fly out of Australia.

"During an inspection, [Australian Border Police] officers located two photographs on Mr. Guajardo's cellphone of a vacuum-sealed bag containing a block of white powder believed to be cocaine," the lawsuit reads.

Metadata allegedly indicated the picture had been taken at the subsidized townhome in Burnaby the previous month.
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/drugs-guajardo-forfeiture-australia-1.5139484
 
J

Jasmine Raine

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Jul 28, 2014
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Mable said:
Interesting question! Escorts do not have any form of legal privilege. They are now committing a criminal offence if engaged in prostitution (notwithstanding the statutory waiver) so, if the border agents find evidence of this activity on the phone it may well be that they are duty bound to refer the matter to the authorities, Canadian and American, if say the lady was coming back from the U.S. All kinds of interesting legal scenarios here.
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It would be more about busting her then passing the info on to another police source to bust the men.


And what I mean by busting her is to deny her passage to the US permanently. If it is the Canadian side, maybe they pass on the phone info but again, mostly they take her info and database that. The focus would be on the girl who they have and can do something about. Not a bunch of men with random numbers. That would be too much work and cross too many jurisdictions for them to care about it.
 
M

massman

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Sep 8, 2001
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oagre said:

Err, if you haven't committed a crime in Sweden, why would you be concerned with what the Swedish authorities find or don't find??

Criminal law is based on national jurisdiction (or state jurisdiction in the US). To arrest you, you have to have done something on THEIR territory. If you have never been to Sweden, why would you worry?
Click to expand...
Border agents in pretty much every country have absolute discretion when it comes to admitting you to the country/ denying you entry. If they suspect that you engage in activity that is illegal there, they can without any other reason prevent you from entering the country.
 
luvyeah

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oagre said:

He complained about solicitor-client privilege, which I would do as well if some government asshole tried to seize my phone. And with good reason. 90% of the material on my phone is client conversations!

His problem is that normal constitutional protections do not apply at the border. While CBSA has to have reasonable and probable grounds to strip search you and detain you and they have to give you your rights, anything short of that isn't protected. It's the old "crossing the border is a privilege, not a right and if you don't like it, go back to the US right now" idea.

CBSA is going to say that the only way they can catch people who want to work illegally, pull immigration marriage scams, etc is to seize their phones and read them. It's not likely a returning lawyer is going to be doing ANY of that stuff and that might be is best weapon in the court case. At the very least, there might be a direction that people who clearly are NOT involved in scams do not get searched - especially if they are lawyers with privileged material on their phones!

BTW I clean off my phone when I go to the States. All escort info and texts are deleted. My hobbying email is removed. All titillating escort nudies are gone. The chances of getting a secondary search are small. But try explaining to Aunt Agatha and Cousin Bill why you're not going to her wedding anniversary in Lauderdale this year because US border control found sexual material on your electronics.
Click to expand...
So best practice is just to not have any data on your device that may or may not be questioned by authorites, rather than encrypting it on a physical device.

I'm curious, so would it best to just leave such things that may be legally questionable on the cloud securely and just access it when needed after crossing the border.
Given no one will question you when you access this data through a secure network.

I wonder what kind of punishment bringing copyright material over the border with a physical device would cause.
 
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wilbur

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Jan 19, 2004
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Knuckle Ball said:
I still don’t get how the border services officers are entitled to search through all of your electronic shit without cause.

Good to know this tho...I’m just gonna leave all of my electronic devices at home when I travel.
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Not having a phone will eventually be cause to detain, search and interrogate you at the border, because not having a phone will be deemed suspicious, that you have something to hide.
 
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wilbur

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massman said:
Border agents in pretty much every country have absolute discretion when it comes to admitting you to the country/ denying you entry. If they suspect that you engage in activity that is illegal there, they can without any other reason prevent you from entering the country.
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The issue is not about turning you back at the border. The issue is being detained by CBSA on the way home to Canada, where you don't have a choice or turning back.
 
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