Charter challenge of Canada's prostitution laws underway today
- Thread starter steve bettman
- Start date
Assuming the agency wins their case, we're going to have a prostitution law where selling sex is legal, everything around selling sex is legal, but the actual purchase of sex remains illegal. To any logical person it would seem preposterous to let this tenet stand... Now, assuming this case is akin to the first domino falling as it were, would it not create an impetus for further legal challenges resulting in the prohibition of purchasing sexual services being struck down?
i doubt it the agency will win this case. the defence strategy seems to be that even though it's agency owners who are charged and NOT sex workers, the law violates sex worker rights' because we "can't take a step left or right without getting charged" and "we can't make ourselves safe" and we "can't hire third parties" - NONE of which are true under the current laws, and every sex worker here can attest to not getting charged for doing sex work. they can also easily be proven to be not true by a basic reading of the new laws brought in by bill c-36, which provide ways for ALL sex workers to work legally in canada and get the services they need.
and even if sex workers do hire someone who is prohibited from providing services to us because they (like agency owners) provide counselling and encouragement and direction and control over who we sell sexual services too, we are never at risk of being charged ourselves for doing that.
so what Lockyer said his closing statement is just false.
i don't know why the crown hasn't been reported to make these arguments either. maybe they did and the news has just selectively reported what the crown has said (they have a tendency to do that)
so unless there's a big piece of the puzzle i'm missing here, and knowledgeable lawyers, feel free to jump in - i don't really see this going anywhere. the only real law on the books that really affects actual sex workers is the advertising laws, which are 100% bullshit, and should be struck down.
but then the crown might appeal and then it'll take like 10 years to get to the supreme court and the laws will stay on the books i think during the appeal period? or are they struck down immediately, usually with like a 6-month period for the government to react with new laws? i can't remember, i'm going to look into that.
but if the laws challenged in this case are struck down, it's unlikely that anyone's going to be challenging the buying laws to get them struck down. when was the last time a truly sympathetic client was arrested for buying sex? that needs to happen for a workable challenge to get rolling. the liberals might repeal the criminalization of buying sex and table new laws altogether. but like, i don't really see them getting their shit together to do that lol, they seem to have some other issues at the moment. also is this an election year? i don't know, i barely care.
Why yes, he is a lawyer. Not an easy achievement as far as I'm aware. Did you ever think that maybe his phone auto corrected? Or maybe the exact name of the case escaped him. (We can't all be up on the case names involving sex work.) No big deal. If you want to criticize what he posted, I'm down with that, but mocking someone over a typo?
Nah. I just didn't remember the case name right.
I'm glad Dawn had a laugh about that. I'll reserve further comments, of which I - and everyone else on this board - could make many. But I did get a laugh about her criticizing James Lockyer, who is one of the most respected senior litigators in Canada.
Slipping up on a case citation is the worst professional shit I'll ever get into.
I'll give credit to Dawn for her interview with Even Soloman.
Evan- did you do this because you had to
Dawn- no, I loved it and the money was a bonus
or something like that, LMAO, well played Dawn.
right and getting outed and arrested for committing a criminal offence - i.e. purchasing sexual services - won't be? k.
i know that if i was going to be openly talking about committing a crime online, i would make sure i knew my constitutional arguments and the case law that would support it like the back of my hand.
james lockyer made me cancel a CPT to pick his kid's dry cleaning up, so yeah, that tells you a lot about him. even his kid seemed embarrassed when i met up with him.
it's apparently a lot easier than you think it is, especially if you've seen the transcripts i've seen in the ineffective assistance of counsel cases i've worked on.
Did you like that first caller? The prudish lady who was in shock that you actually enjoy being an escort. That was hilarious!
yes lol i reacted to the callers here: https://twitter.com/dawnleeTO/status/1121514425108836352
i had no idea ppl were going to call in but the fact that this was a conservative talk radio show aimed at older people was just icing on the cake. i loved ALL the callers lol. they were each unique and wonderful in their own way.
my fave was when the second last guy (aka scott from the wind tunnel) was all: people think I'M morally repugnant for using plastic grocery bags but now this society is allowing hookers to be lawyers?!
and yes, rose going on about how DISGUSTED she was about the blase way i went about talking about sex work and violating the sacred act of sex was a close runner-up.
check out my national post article from today! https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/chastened-sort-of-meet-canadas-most-badass-aspiring-lawyer
evan solomon show, i'm at 20:30: http://www.iheartradio.ca/580-cfra/...ow-for-april-25th-2019-1.9105884?mode=Article
Justice Thomas McKay of the Ontario Court of Justice is not expected to return his decision until months after the proceedings finally wrap up on June 13.
"I expect my decision, when it comes, will be a lengthy one," McKay told the court at the end of the day.
"I expect my decision, when it comes, will be a lengthy one," McKay told the court at the end of the day.
Wow! Thanks for providing this and sharing your life with us. It takes a brave person to openly state to the world that you enjoy sex, you enjoy being a sex worker and now you have all these obstacles to overcome to gain that final step at becoming a lawyer. You are the real deal. Previous reading some of your terb comments I though you were this arrogant man hating SP with an agenda to bring down loser Johns, but now after listening to you speak and connecting all the terb posts and info I know about you I now get it. I see that you are just giving it back to the people that disrespected you and tried to bring you down. I can tell a lot from someone based on listening their voice and what you are doing is very admirable and honest especially how you followed the life you wanted and openly participated in activities that you enjoy knowing that you were going to be judged and tried by so many people including your family. I can see the hard life that you are living but I admire the fact that you are not playing victim, you are not allowing anyone to define you and limit you. You are doing quite the opposite and showing a true form of leadership through example. I value this in people and have the highest respect for people that poses this type of a personality. It is the type of leaders we need in this society. I think you are a very brave and strong woman to live your life like this knowing the consequences. I know you said that you made mistakes which also admirable and its hard not to take this type of troll bait when it feels like the whole world is against you. However these types of mistakes are the best life teachers, and it appears that you have already gained the valuable lessons knowing that even more will try to come after you and bait you into mistakes.
I also can’t believe how ignorant those callers are and just puts things into perspective how brainwashed and controlled and controlling our societies still are. What happened to valuing the individuals and their choice. These ignorant people don’t get it and it’s because of this type of mindset that we have racism and intolerance to people who choose to live life other than what it defined in these peoples constrained box. When will they get it that its your body your choice. These people are against the value and respect for humanity and promote hate.
Thank you for being true to YOU and settling an example to all of us and promoting value and respect for humanity and individualism.
I also can’t believe how ignorant those callers are and just puts things into perspective how brainwashed and controlled and controlling our societies still are. What happened to valuing the individuals and their choice. These ignorant people don’t get it and it’s because of this type of mindset that we have racism and intolerance to people who choose to live life other than what it defined in these peoples constrained box. When will they get it that its your body your choice. These people are against the value and respect for humanity and promote hate.
Thank you for being true to YOU and settling an example to all of us and promoting value and respect for humanity and individualism.
I think you are underplaying potential creative Charter arguments in favour of gents. If gays have a broad right to sexual expression (and old community morals standards can no longer be used to prohibit such behaviours, as in the 50s), why not extend the same liberal values to the paid sex sector??
I personally see an implicit feminist agenda behind of public policy since the 70's, where liberal values are used in a selective rather than consistent manner.
PS: You are a good writer btw. After you become financially secure, you might want to consider some pro bono public interest litigation.
Well, the problem with paid sex is it always has the stigma of being tied to trafficking, sexual slavery, etc. Of course, most of us here know that there are plenty of women who engage in the industry willingly and that much of the exploitation and abuse happens because prohibition drives it underground, but most people aren’t aware of this. This is the problem. If you try to make it a human rights or civil liberties issue, opponents of commercial sex always bust out the human trafficking card, and given how opaque the industry is when it comes to being able to collect useful data, it’s going to be very hard to refute those claims.
i think the BIGGEST problem with paid sex right now is how many of the men in this industry do not have the balls to step out of the shadows and speak up for the industry despite the MANY benefits that the clients receive from engaging in this industry. i get it if you're married and you don't want to hurt your wife and kids, but even then, if you're in a position of power like in law or politics, the least you could do is speak up against the criminalization of innocent clients who just happened to answer a stupid leolist ad.
one london cop killed himself by walking out on the 401 after his name was revealed in a sting and i still can't get over that. do you guys really have that much issue with the 'shame' of seeing a paid companion for sex? you people spend all day blabbing on here and other forums, openly engaging in endless dialogues about this industry and your sex lives, scrutinizing sex workers down to the last detail, and (some of you) whining constantly about how much we charge and your inability or refusal to pay those rates while simultaneously acting as if you have a god-given right to access ANY of our attention or bodies.
but out in the real world, you suddenly turn into shrinking violets? give me a break. sex workers have done ALL the work so far in moving this industry forward out of the shadows. all clients have done is reap the benefits. if you don't want to be seen as patronizers of the economically exploited in this industry, then a) don't patronize the economically exploited, and b) if you have any ability or room to do (i.e. if you're single, if you know your fave regular is doing this completely out of her own free will), you should speak up about your right to purchase sex from those who consensually provide it. if the rest of the world realized how many "normal" men pay women for sex, the conversation would be completely different.
and no, you cannot get arrested/convicted simply for saying that you have paid women for sex in the past.
thank you so much for this comment, i appreciate it so much. i'm going to try to do everything i can with the platforms i have to try to move this industry towards the right direction.
