Audi Just Invented Fuel Made From CO₂ and Water

It’s a cool idea. They have apparently figured out how to create diesel fuel from CO2 and water.

My only questions are:
1. How much will it cost to produce this fuel?
2. Will burning this diesel fuel not contribute to the emission of greenhouse gases that are causing climate change?


I’d rather see the continued development of electric vehicles but if this technology helps then great.

Knuckle Ball said:

It’s a cool idea. They have apparently figured out how to create diesel fuel from CO2 and water.

My only questions are:
1. How much will it cost to produce this fuel?
2. Will burning this diesel fuel not contribute to the emission of greenhouse gases that are causing climate change?
You got it.

I’d rather see the continued development of electric vehicles but if this technology helps then great.

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Last weekend's NYTimes Magazine included a reference to Audi's success in their piece on carbon-capture, and made the same point you raised.

Where that could put us ahead is by removing CO[SUB]2[/SUB] from the air to make our fuel, instead of adding CO[SUB]2[/SUB] by burning fuel made from Carbon newly dug out of the ground where it had sat without danger for eons. If all we then do is put the Carbon back out into the air via the tail-pipe, the process would be a wasteful farce, but Audi's hope is that newer diesels will 'scrub' the Carbon out of their exhausts. Then it could be re-manufactured into fuel by adding O[SUB]2[/SUB] and H[SUB]2[/SUB] from water, or buried.

Assuming they're right, electric is still the way for cars to go. Scrubbing emissions from a few highly regulated generating stations seems a way safer bet than a) junking all the bad old diesels b) expecting millions of independent owner-operators to keep their ultra-high-tech diesels tuned and scrubbed up to scratch.
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PS: Howcum we're even talking about this fake-news that seems to have appeared only in the lying MSM? Where are the earnest and truthy sources with the real story?

Knuckle Ball said:

It’s a cool idea. They have apparently figured out how to create diesel fuel from CO2 and water.

My only questions are:
1. How much will it cost to produce this fuel?
2. Will burning this diesel fuel not contribute to the emission of greenhouse gases that are causing climate change?


I’d rather see the continued development of electric vehicles but if this technology helps then great.

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Its neutral as it takes CO2 from the air and puts it back in. The cost will depend on the energy source and I am not sure how efficient it is. i.e for x watts how many watts can you get back out? The problem is, ICE cars are extremely inefficient. Assuming you can get 50 % from the conversion process from electricity to fuel, you will then only get about 12-15% in real world so only 7% of the electricity will be converted to motive power in the car. EVs which after transmission/charge/discharge etc are still gonna convert well over 50% to motive power.

This is a very smart technology as the CO2 is readily available from the atmosphere and H2 is cheap to produce. The CO2 and H2 reaction produces a mixture of CO and then the combination with additional H2 reacts to form the E-Diesel. If this takes off, then this will be the interim solution to dumping the existing diesel in cars and trucks. This is much cleaner technology than the conventional diesel. But this will not be good news for Provinces like Alberta!!

bver_hunter said:

This is a very smart technology as the CO2 is readily available from the atmosphere and H2 is cheap to produce. The CO2 and H2 reaction produces a mixture of CO and then the combination with additional H2 reacts to form the E-Diesel. If this takes off, then this will be the interim solution to dumping the existing diesel in cars and trucks. This is much cleaner technology than the conventional diesel. But this will not be good news for Provinces like Alberta!!

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Yes, sounds like the real breakthrough is in binding hydrogen to CO2 in a liquid form.

Frankfooter said:

Yes, sounds like the real breakthrough is in binding hydrogen to CO2 in a liquid form.

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True as chemically the only end product will be formic acid, with 2 molecules of CO (carbon monoxide as they state in that graph) and then one molecule of H2 reacting in the presence of a catalyst. Formic acid however is not a highly flammable substance. But it is a possibility that the mixture of these two gases are present in a supercritical state, so they are more likely to be a fluid rather than a liquid, and do not react with one another.

bver_hunter said:

so they are more likely to be a fluid rather than a liquid, and do not react with one another.

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Whats the difference?

Isnt a fluid considered a liquid?

Fathammer said:

Whats the difference?

Isnt a fluid considered a liquid?

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A supercritical fluid is definitely not a liquid. It has the characteristics of both gases and liquids. You can tell if it is a fluid by the appearance of the meniscus.
There has to also be a minimum pressure and temperature applied to the gases to be in that supercritical state. Not saying that this is a Fluid, as scientifically I cannot see how the molecules of these two gases can react without the presence of a catalyst.

Makes very little sense.

The losses in converting electricity to diesel fuel and using a diesel engine are massive, when you can use electricity to power a vehicle.

Why go through all this processing just to leep the polluting diesel engines alive a bit longer?

danmand said:

Makes very little sense.

The losses in converting electricity to diesel fuel and using a diesel engine are massive, when you can use electricity to power a vehicle.

Why go through all this processing just to leep the polluting diesel engines alive a bit longer?

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Range, I'd expect.
liquid fuels give cars a far bigger range than electric at present.

bver_hunter said:

A supercritical fluid is definitely not a liquid. It has the characteristics of both gases and liquids. You can tell if it is a fluid by the appearance of the meniscus.
There has to also be a minimum pressure and temperature applied to the gases to be in that supercritical state. Not saying that this is a Fluid, as scientifically I cannot see how the molecules of these two gases can react without the presence of a catalyst.

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Thanks for the explanation. More science was required on my part. Just thought you got your wording wrong.

Basically they would be inventing a new state of fuel as compared to gasoline or diesel. Maybe similar to liquid propane or possibly liquid oxygen?

Frankfooter said:

Range, I'd expect.
liquid fuels give cars a far bigger range than electric at present.

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Pretty well the reason for diesel or equivalents. Energy storage densities and established distribution infrastructure.

Frankfooter said:

Range, I'd expect.
liquid fuels give cars a far bigger range than electric at present.

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Actually, hydrogen fuel cells can give you a better range and emit pure water as a byproduct.

The only issue with it is that its highly explosive and in case of an accident it can be very hazardous. BUT!, gasoline and propane are just as dangerous and we have vehicles running off that.

Keep in mind, by switching over to electric vehicles, your electricity prices will also go through the roof comparable to that of gasoline or possibly higher.

Where one product phases out, another replaces it and not necessarily at a cost efficiency.

The energy sector demands profits. We will get fucked one way or another unfortunately.

Fathammer said:

Actually, hydrogen fuel cells can give you a better range and emit pure water as a byproduct.

The only issue with it is that its highly explosive and in case of an accident it can be very hazardous. BUT!, gasoline and propane are just as dangerous and we have vehicles running off that.

Keep in mind, by switching over to electric vehicles, your electricity prices will also go through the roof comparable to that of gasoline or possibly higher.

Where one product phases out, another replaces it and not necessarily at a cost efficiency.

The energy sector demands profits. We will get fucked one way or another unfortunately.

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Hydrogen is very problematic as fuel source, in general.
Of course, its not even a source, just an energy storage option, really.

Frankfooter said:

Range, I'd expect.
liquid fuels give cars a far bigger range than electric at present.

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Telsla are already able to go over 500km and they are increasing capacity 20% a year. The BMW i3 for example has doubled its battery range since 2014 in the same size. Now at about 300KM but there is a tech demoonstator running that will do 700KM in the same oackage size.Liquid fuels are losing any perceived advantage at a breathtaking rate.

Big Sleazy said:

If anybody is truly serious about Climate Change ( which I think is a complete farce ) then we should be creating this kind of technology. Not placing a carbon tax on your existing infrastructure on your citizens. But I guess our University graduates are too busy getting degrees in Genderology, Psychology, Woman Studies, Black History. Instead of studying SCIENCE and MATH ! You know. People that can create shit and not just shit !

http://time.com/3837814/audi-environmental-protection-green-energy-climate-change-cars/

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From the article

Manufacturing involves first breaking down steam into hydrogen and oxygen through high-temperature electrolysis. The hydrogen then reacts with CO2 to create a liquid called “blue crude.” This is then refined to make the e-diesel.

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First breaking down steam into hydrogen & oxygen through high-temperature electrolysis

Q1. What is required to create high temperature? Energy
Q2. What is required to perform electrolysis ? Energy and a lot of it


The hydrogen then reacts with CO2 to create a liquid called “blue crude.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-diesel

The next two chemical processes to create a liquid energy carrier called blue crude are done at a temperature of 220 °C (428 °F) and a pressure of 25 bars (2,500 kPa). In a conversion step, hydrogen and carbon dioxide are used to create syngas with water as byproduct. The syngas, which contains carbon monoxide and hydrogen, reacts to generate the blue crude.

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Q3. What is required to get to a temperature of 428 F ? Energy

Q4. So how many bbls of oil equivalent of input energy are required to make a barrel of this new diesel?
Q5. Is it less than one?
Q6. How many wind farms will this require to produce say 1,000 barrels a day?
Anything of real scale would require a continuous uninterrupted energy source

The first law of Thermodynamics, also known as Law of Conservation of Energy, states that energy cannot be created or destroyed in an isolated system.

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This is likely innovative and I wish them success, however this is not going to replace fossil fuels

Fathammer said:

Actually, hydrogen fuel cells can give you a better range and emit pure water as a byproduct.

The only issue with it is that its highly explosive and in case of an accident it can be very hazardous. BUT!, gasoline and propane are just as dangerous and we have vehicles running off that.

Keep in mind, by switching over to electric vehicles, your electricity prices will also go through the roof comparable to that of gasoline or possibly higher.

Where one product phases out, another replaces it and not necessarily at a cost efficiency.

The energy sector demands profits. We will get fucked one way or another unfortunately.

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Gasoline and propane is much much much much more safer than Hydrogen.

I'm very skeptical, current diesel fuel contains more carbon than gasoline and is considered carcinogenic.

How they can make diesel fuel from water is beyond me. The water has to be converted to steam before it can react, that takes much more energy going in for the required payload. I don't see it.

Gasoline is still more efficient.

This technology has been around for a decade. There was a Canadian guy who pioneered it believe it or not. If I recall correctly it involves percolating co2 through algae water and turning the whole thing into bio Diesel

I also remember he was convicted of murder.