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Iran's nuclear program

Frankfooter

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Apr 10, 2015
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Avoidance has become your usual tactic.

There is no reason to need that many centrifuges except to have a short breakout time.
I gave you a good answer.
Israeli stuxnet hacking destroyed multiple centrifuges.

Why do you avoid answering why Israel won't sign the NPT yet you claim that only Iran is the issue, when they are a signatory and obeying the treaty?
 

wilbur

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Jan 19, 2004
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So you don't want to discuss why Iran needs so many centrifuges other than keeping the possibility of a short breakout time alive?



You do realize that Israel would have been an existing power when the NPT went into effect and therefore like the US, Russia, China, etc. would have been allowed to keep nuclear weapons?


Yes I'd like to see Israel without nukes but that is as realistic as any other nuclear power doing the same. I don't see you campaigning for any other countries to disarm or even call on India or Pakistan to join. What reason could you have for only focusing on Israel?
Iran deactivated a large proportion of its centrifuges in accordance with the treaty they signed, and that mandates inspections by the UN Nuclear inspection teams at all times. They are limited to 3% enrichment, and are supposed to import the 20% enriched isotopes used for medical radio-isotopes.... you know, like cancer treatment. They had to deactivate their research reactor that produced the 20% enriched radio-isotopes. In case you didn't know, Uranium has to be enriched to 97% in order to make it into bomb material.

So in stating that Iran is the largest funder of terrorists, all you have is Hezbollah? And that Iran was reponsible for US casualties in the 2003 invasion of Iraq is laughable. Saddam of Iraq was virtually at war with Iran.

Saudi Arabia is the world's biggest supporter of terrorism, as it was they that started and funded ISIS, in order to overthrow Assad in Syria because he wouldn't allow a pipeline through his country. That funding backfired when ISIS first gobbled up half of Iraq, and captured a massive amount of US supplied equipment. IT IS A WELL DOCUMENTED FACT.

Hezbollah and Iran have actually helped defeat ISIS and Al-Qaida in Syria. Hamas also worked with the Lebanese Army to rid Lebanon's border regions of Al-Qaida and ISIS terrorists. So who's terrorists are you talking about? Israel was also supporting Al-Qaida terrorists across the Golan. It was Hezbollah that liberated the Christian town of Maaloula of ISIS terrorists; they even rang the church bells to celebrate.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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I gave you a good answer.
Israeli stuxnet hacking destroyed multiple centrifuges.
...
Yet both before and after, Iran was planning on at least 25,000 centrifuges. The ONLY reason for that many is for a short breakout time (or at least Iran trying to be a regional bully and pretend they have the capability). And you might have noticed that the deal that everyone signed onto was to keep Iran at only 6,000 or so early generation centrifuges which would enrich more than enough 3% fuel for their one commercial reactor. That being the case, Iran's masses of more advanced centrifuges are completely unneeded for any possible civilian purpose.

And I didn't avoid your answer. Israel like any other country could choose to sign but what you miss is that Israel was already a nuclear power when the NPT went into force so they would still be allowed to keep their nukes. Them signing now or even then) would make zero difference.

p.s. Saudi Arabia is extremely concerned about Iranian nuclear programs so Iran with a large centrifuge capacity will result in Saudi doing the same which obviously is not a good thing. The only reason why they aren't now is the US bribed them with more conventional weapons, the lesser evil.
 

basketcase

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Iran deactivated a large proportion of its centrifuges in accordance with the treaty they signed, and that mandates inspections by the UN Nuclear inspection teams at all times. They are limited to 3% enrichment, and are supposed to import the 20% enriched isotopes used for medical radio-isotopes.... you know, like cancer treatment. They had to deactivate their research reactor that produced the 20% enriched radio-isotopes. In case you didn't know, Uranium has to be enriched to 97% in order to make it into bomb material.
Well 90%, not 97%. The issue is that the enrichment process speeds up as the purity of the sample increases. The time from natural (0.6%ish) to 3% is about the same time as 3% to 20% and about the same time as 20% to 90%.

I don't think I have ever said Iran is the LARGEST funder of terrorism but they do control Hezbollah and they fund Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and several other groups. They have also been recently sanctioned by the EU for using diplomatic status to assassinate political dissidents.

And yes, Saudi is likely worse. The fact is though that Saudi and Iran are huge rivals and (as I mentioned to Frankie, a suspicious Iranian program will eventually result in a suspicious Saudi program and that conflict is far more volatile than India/Pakistan.

Your line of argument about Syria is silly though as Hezbollah and Assad aren't magnitudes better than ISIS. Even if Hezbollah is working to defeat ISIS, they still have a long history of terrorism (and in violation of multiple international treaties as a non-governmental army) and Hamas (who as far as I'm aware isn't active in Lebanon) is still engaged in direct terror attacks against civilians.


p.s. The only reliable reports about Israel is they provided small arms to some rebel groups who fought against both Iranian backed forces and ISIS. They did not back either ISIS or AQ.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/09/0...ed-and-funded-rebel-groups-in-southern-syria/

p.p.s. Canada has also provided direct support to certain rebel groups.
 

Frankfooter

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Apr 10, 2015
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Yet both before and after, Iran was planning on ...
Why are you still fixated on Iran, which signed and is holding to the NPT, complete with inspections despite Trump pulling out of it?

Why not complain about the Saudis?
And yes, Saudi is likely worse.
Under Mr Bone Saw the US thinks that they are really trying to build a bomb.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/22/world/middleeast/saudi-arabia-nuclear.html

And why do you think Iran is a problem but Israel isn't?
After all, Iran's plans came from the same ones that Israel stole years before.
The truth about Israel's secret nuclear arsenal
Israel has been stealing nuclear secrets and covertly making bombs since the 1950s. And western governments, including Britain and the US, turn a blind eye. But how can we expect Iran to curb its nuclear ambitions if the Israelis won't come clean?

...
According to Milchan's biography, by Israeli journalists Meir Doron and Joseph Gelman, he was recruited in 1965 by Israel's current president, Shimon Peres, who he met in a Tel Aviv nightclub (called Mandy's, named after the hostess and owner's wife Mandy Rice-Davies, freshly notorious for her role in the Profumo sex scandal). Milchan, who then ran the family fertiliser company, never looked back, playing a central role in Israel's clandestine acquisition programme.

He was responsible for securing vital uranium-enrichment technology, photographing centrifuge blueprints that a German executive had been bribed into temporarily "mislaying" in his kitchen. The same blueprints, belonging to the European uranium enrichment consortium, Urenco, were stolen a second time by a Pakistani employee, Abdul Qadeer Khan, who used them to found his country's enrichment programme and to set up a global nuclear smuggling business, selling the design to Libya, North Korea and Iran.

For that reason, Israel's centrifuges are near-identical to Iran's, a convergence that allowed Israeli to try out a computer worm, codenamed Stuxnet, on its own centrifuges before unleashing it on Iran in 2010.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/15/truth-israels-secret-nuclear-arsenal
 

Zaibetter

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For some reason with our local Libtards... Iran is ok but the Saudis are bad :rofl:
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
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Why are you still fixated on Iran,...
So I see you don't want to explain what civilian purpose all the centrifuges Iran built have when even the massively limited amount allowed in the deal provides them with sufficient fuel for their reactors.


I don't wonder at your motivation about Israel though; even if they signed in 1967 they were an existing nuclear power and would have been entitled to keep their nukes.



p.s. you might notice in at least two posts I criticized the inevitable Saudi response to Iranian enrichment. At least Saudi was dissuaded by the bribe of conventional weapons.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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And why do you think Iran is a problem but Israel isn't?
After all, Iran's plans came from the same ones that Israel stole years before.
The truth about Israel's secret nuclear arsenal
Israel has been stealing nuclear secrets and covertly making bombs since the 1950s. And western governments, including Britain and the US, turn a blind eye. But how can we expect Iran to curb its nuclear ambitions if the Israelis won't come clean?

...
According to Milchan's biography, by Israeli journalists Meir Doron and Joseph Gelman, he was recruited in 1965 by Israel's current president, Shimon Peres, who he met in a Tel Aviv nightclub (called Mandy's, named after the hostess and owner's wife Mandy Rice-Davies, freshly notorious for her role in the Profumo sex scandal). Milchan, who then ran the family fertiliser company, never looked back, playing a central role in Israel's clandestine acquisition programme.

He was responsible for securing vital uranium-enrichment technology, photographing centrifuge blueprints that a German executive had been bribed into temporarily "mislaying" in his kitchen. The same blueprints, belonging to the European uranium enrichment consortium, Urenco, were stolen a second time by a Pakistani employee, Abdul Qadeer Khan, who used them to found his country's enrichment programme and to set up a global nuclear smuggling business, selling the design to Libya, North Korea and Iran.

For that reason, Israel's centrifuges are near-identical to Iran's, a convergence that allowed Israeli to try out a computer worm, codenamed Stuxnet, on its own centrifuges before unleashing it on Iran in 2010.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/15/truth-israels-secret-nuclear-arsenal
 

K Douglas

Half Man Half Amazing
Jan 5, 2005
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Room 112
And why do you think Iran is a problem but Israel isn't?
After all, Iran's plans came from the same ones that Israel stole years before.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/15/truth-israels-secret-nuclear-arsenal
Is Israel the largest state sponsor of terror in the world?
Is Israel an authoritarian regime?
Has Israel ever threatened to wipe another country off the map?

It's either colossal stupidity or rampant anti-Semitism to include Israel in the same discussion as Iran.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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Is Israel the largest state sponsor of terror in the world?
Good question, I'd say Saudi Arabia is #1.
Israel killed 300 and injured 18,000 protesters this year, how many did Iran?

Is Israel an authoritarian regime?
Israel killed 300 and injured 18,000 protesters this year, how many did Iran?
Apartheid is a crime against humanity, which ranks it as worse then authoritarian.
Iran is theocratic, much like Israel.


Has Israel ever threatened to wipe another country off the map?
Israel has threatened to use its nukes on its enemies, which is much worse then anything Iran, with their Canada sized army, could do.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/2...-use-nuclear-weapons-to-wipe-out-its-enemies/

Its an interesting debate if you really want to go there.
 

K Douglas

Half Man Half Amazing
Jan 5, 2005
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Room 112
Good question, I'd say Saudi Arabia is #1.
Israel killed 300 and injured 18,000 protesters this year, how many did Iran?


Israel killed 300 and injured 18,000 protesters this year, how many did Iran?
Apartheid is a crime against humanity, which ranks it as worse then authoritarian.
Iran is theocratic, much like Israel.



Israel has threatened to use its nukes on its enemies, which is much worse then anything Iran, with their Canada sized army, could do.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/2...-use-nuclear-weapons-to-wipe-out-its-enemies/

Its an interesting debate if you really want to go there.
No it's not even up for debate. Iran ranks 18/100 on the Human Freedom Index. Israel ranks 79/100.
BTW I love how you label Hamas terrorists 'protesters'
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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No it's not even up for debate. Iran ranks 18/100 on the Human Freedom Index. Israel ranks 79/100.
BTW I love how you label Hamas terrorists 'protesters'
Does that index include occupied Palestine as under Israeli rule in part of that index?
If you check those reports you'll note that they list Israel as a country but not Palestine. Yet they don't include the Occupied Territories of Palestine as part of Israel either.
Because if you include the West Bank and Gaza, then Israel sinks to the bottom of the chart.

UN envoy: Gaza an open-air prison
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2010/03/201032214210263604.html
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
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And why do you think Iran is a problem but Israel isn't?...
Other than Israel being a functioning democracy that has had nukes for 50+ years and never using them, even in '73 when Syrian tanks were on their way to Tel Aviv?

Face it, even if Israel had signed at the start, they would still be allowed nukes as pre-existing powers, just like Russia, China, France, the UK, and the US.


Still waiting to here you explain what civilian purpose Iran having so many centrifuges has. Avoidance is not an answer.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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...
Because if you include the West Bank and Gaza, then Israel sinks to the bottom of the chart....
And look at you pretending the rating is Israel's fault and not the massively repressive systems implemented by Hamas and the PA.

Hamas and the PA are the ones who routinely arrest and torture people simply for criticizing the government, having summary executions after sham trials, and sentencing people to life because of rumours they sold land to Jews.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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And look at you pretending the rating is Israel's fault and not the massively repressive systems implemented by Hamas and the PA.
Israel is the occupying power and responsible for the full situation in the occupied territories until it hands that land back to Palestine.
Israel is running the apartheid system that wasn't ranked in your freedom index.
 

K Douglas

Half Man Half Amazing
Jan 5, 2005
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Room 112
Israel is the occupying power and responsible for the full situation in the occupied territories until it hands that land back to Palestine.
Israel is running the apartheid system that wasn't ranked in your freedom index.
Stay on topic we are discussing the Pariah also known as Iran. Not Israel vs Palestine.
 

wilbur

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Jan 19, 2004
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Other than Israel being a functioning democracy that has had nukes for 50+ years and never using them, even in '73 when Syrian tanks were on their way to Tel Aviv?
Having a democracy does not prevent countries from waging aggressive wars.

Remember Viet-Nam? The US started it under the false pretext that the North Vietnamese started it (Gulf of Tonkin incident).
How many wars did France and the Great Britain start, as they each conquered their shares of Africa and Asia?
And let us not forget the Iraqi invasion by the US under false pretenses, and the destruction of the Libyan state by US led NATO under the pretext of war monger Clinton's R2P, breaking the UN charter on non-agression.

Iran has had a civilian nuclear program since the US gave the Shah the nuclear technology. That's to generate electricity, and to be self sufficient in the production of nuclear radio-isotopes for medical applications.

The present treaty that the US decided to walk away from is guaranteed by stringent inspections of Iran's nuclear facilities. A significant proportion of its centrifuges has been deactivated.

Iran's leaders are not crazy, and Iran is not a one person dictatorship. There would be no point in launching a nuke and then face massive anihilation from a counter strike. It has checks and balances, so a decision to use nuke (that they don't have) would be vetoed.

The US goal in the region is to overthrow the Iranian regime, and accusing them of having nukes is the pretext to [yet again] do that. The US demands compliance from foreign states, and if the stakes are high enough and the state weak enough, they will wage war to get it.
 

basketcase

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Israel is the occupying power and responsible for the full situation in the occupied territories until it hands that land back to Palestine.....
Gaza and much of the PA are already run by Hamas/PA. Why do you refuse to blame them for their own issues?

Seems you are suggesting that Israel send in the military to take over the PA, invade Gaza to get rid of Hamas. What ever happened to your support of peace?


And still waiting for you to explain why Iran has built as many centrifuges as the US for one civilian reactor.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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Having a democracy does not prevent countries from waging aggressive wars....
Of course not.

But as I stated, Israel has had nukes since before the NPT existed and has chosen not to use them even when Syrian tanks were driving towards Israel's most populated region.


My issue isn't with the current treaty but rather Iran's actions that required the UN to act. They have intentionally developed a suspicious nuclear program (whether because they want nukes or they want their regional enemies to think so) and the result can only be other countries like Saudi doing the same.
 

Frankfooter

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Gaza and much of the PA are already run by Hamas/PA. Why do you refuse to blame them for their own issues?
They live under Israeli military occupation, as they have for half a century.
Israel is liable for their wellbeing according to the Geneva Conventions.

Israel is a signatory and liable to obey the conventions.
 
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