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CIA 'blames Saudi prince for murder' of Jamal Khashoggi

bver_hunter

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You mean Sky, and everyone who reported the Sky article, were taking the words of absolute nobodies on such an important point? LOL! Kind of makes you wonder about the quality of journalism, doesn't it? It should. Do you have a reason to believe anything the Turks would report? Do you think the Turkish authorities are trustworthy and/or reliable? How about the CIA? Trustworthy and reliable?

As usual, you miss the point, seemingly intentionally. Didn't you understand that I didn't accept the Sky story any more than I accept the surmise of Turkish officials, or the CIA for that matter. They are all conflicted on this issue. It's almost as if they are all doing their level best to ENSURE that the investigation is inconclusive.
Again,you still have no evidence that the actual Turkish Government or their own sources revealed it. All the news media clearly said that they were unconfirmed sources.

If you are saying that you would be prepared to accept the findings of Turkey (didn't they previously claim the body parts were buried in the Consulate gardens?), without confirming those findings with the CIA, then I think we've found at least one idiot, but it isn't Trump.
So your statement above was wrong, because The Turkish Government made no such claims and you cannot prove it that they made those claims. Really, get your facts right for once. To sum up....Trump is the Biggest Idiot!!
 

Bud Plug

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Again,you still have no evidence that the actual Turkish Government or their own sources revealed it. All the news media clearly said that they were unconfirmed sources.



So your statement above was wrong, because The Turkish Government made no such claims and you cannot prove it that they made those claims. Really, get your facts right for once. To sum up....Trump is the Biggest Idiot!!
This has got to be trolling. How could you miss the point so often? It has to be intentional.
 

mandrill

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Aug 23, 2001
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Bottom Line Up Front

At some point today, the U.S. government is expected to release its assessment on the murder of U.S. resident Jamal Khashoggi in the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul.
President Trump has already minimized the assessment, questioning ‘will anybody really know?’ when asked about the Khashoggi murder during an interview.
This follows a leak which reportedly confirms the CIA has concluded ‘with high confidence’ that the murder was ordered by Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.
President Trump routinely dismisses the work of U.S. intelligence agencies and questions the loyalties of intelligence officials when it contradicts his personal opinions, which are not based on evidence or analysis, but ‘instinct.’

.

The U.S. is once again drifting away from long-time allies, this time by choosing not side with the European Union in demanding a full and transparent explanation by the Saudi government for the murder of Jamal Khashoggi inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, Turkey, on October 2, 2018.From the start, the numerous stories relayed by the Saudi government have all been implausible to varying degrees. The lack of credibility stems from the fact that the half dozen or so Saudi explanations all ignore how personnel extremely close to Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman could participate in the events that transpired, without first seeking and securing his permission. These include traveling on private Saudi government jets, murdering Khashoggi inside the consulate, calling one of Mohammed bin Salman’s top advisors, and finally dismembering and disposing of Khashoggi’s body before flying back to Riyadh. One version alleged a ‘rogue’ operation that incredulously suggested that this chain of events took place without the knowledge of the Crown Prince, whose image has been of a man in total control of even the most mundane details related to the Kingdom.

On November 16, there were reports suggesting the CIA had concluded ‘with high confidence’ that the murder of Khashoggi was ordered by Mohammed bin Salman. This set up another very public schism between President Trump and the intelligence community. After the news of the CIA assessment, the State Department released a statement that ‘reports indicating that the U.S. government has made a final conclusion are inaccurate.’ This is misleading itself, since the reports were not about a ‘final conclusion,’ but about the CIA’s assessment, which would be a significant factor in the government’s conclusion. After the agency assessment surfaced in the press, President Trump noted that Saudi Arabia was a ‘truly spectacular ally,’ foreshadowing the strong possibility that the U.S. will eschew meaningful action against the Saudis, even in the face of an assessment by its own intelligence community about Khashoggi’s killing. He also said he did not and would not listen to the audiotape of the murder, obtained by Turkish intelligence. Other politicians have been more forthcoming, including Tennessee Senator and Republican chairman of the Senate’s Foreign Relations Committee Bob Corker, who noted that ‘Everything points to the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia…ordering Khashoggi’s killing.’

The President stated the government would release its official conclusion today, November 20, and then preempted the release by immediately minimizing it, rhetorically asking during an interview with Fox News, ‘will anyone really know?’ This continues a pattern of the President casting doubt on the assessments of the government he leads, specifically assessments that conflict with his personal opinions and ‘instincts.’ This pattern has been consistent since before the President took office, with the repeated dismissal of the U.S. government’s assessment that Russia did indeed interfere with the 2016 election and did so in order to aid the Trump campaign. From Russia to Saudi Arabia and election results to climate change, the President has unabashedly dismissed expert assessments by the U.S. government or demeaned the experts themselves.

The public spectacle of a president consistently at odds with the country’s intelligence agencies is only slightly less damaging than the private reality of such a disconnect. The dismissal of inconvenient facts and assessments is a recipe for catastrophe in terms of policy decisions, both foreign and domestic, and eerily reminiscent of the lead up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Gut instincts and making decisions based upon perceived ‘friendships’ is antithetical to statecraft and sound governance. By casting doubt on the work and even the loyalties of various government departments and agencies, President Trump is undermining trust in the entire government, and the notion that there are good, objective, and competent people of all backgrounds and beliefs working to advance the interests of the United States and its allies throughout the world. The entire Khashoggi incident has been a disgrace and a rare public embarrassment for bin Salman, formerly a darling of the West for his alleged ‘reformer’ role. There are serious long-term implications of today’s assessment which could further strain U.S.-Saudi relations and embolden those American politicians who are openly calling for a critical reassessment of Washington’s relationship with Riyadh.


http://thesoufancenter.org/intelbrief-the-art-of-sidelining-intelligence/
 

mandrill

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Hey Bud! "Prove to us" once again how Heather Heyer spontaneously combusted and how your right wing buddy-boy didn't really kill her with his car.
 

Frankfooter

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A leak from the State Dept says that this is the result of the CIA report.

'Blindingly obvious' that MBS ordered Khashoggi murder: report

Trump will still deny it, the way he denies Putin hacked the dems to put him power and the way he denies that NK is building more missile sites.

Al Jazeera has a good post on MBS putting the brakes on his signature financial move for SA.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018...-corporate-bond-sale-wsj-181120013924565.html

And CBC has a good article on SA royalty and the start of moves there around MBS's power plays.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/saudi-royals-prince-mohammed-bin-salman-khashoggi-murder-1.4912591

They note that MBS is talking to Putin about the S-400, that might be the one thing that turns the US against SA. Though the Trump love for despots may over rule the military pressure.
 

Bud Plug

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Hey Bud! "Prove to us" once again how Heather Heyer spontaneously combusted and how your right wing buddy-boy didn't really kill her with his car.
Been at the drink again? Don't provide any advice this morning. The Law Society frowns on that sort of thing.
 

Frankfooter

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Trump states that even if after the CIA shows him their evidence MBS ordered the killing that he'll still stick with MBS.

"The United States intends to remain a steadfast partner of Saudi Arabia to ensure the interests of our country, Israel and all other partners in the region. It is our paramount goal to fully eliminate the threat of terrorism throughout the world!" the president said.
https://thehill.com/homenews/admini...lty-to-saudi-arabia-in-striking-new-statement

Its interesting that Trump mentions Israel in this context, rumour has been that Kushner supports MBS as he backs Kushner's 'final project' for peace with Israel and the Palestinians.
https://www.axios.com/white-house-m...lan-a433da32-df83-41bf-b8a2-6128a5b46bb2.html

Really, all it seems to do is cement the US involvement in more 'forever wars', as if they need that.
https://thehill.com/opinion/international/417237-syria-gaza-afghanistan-the-endless-wars
 

Frankfooter

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Iran trolls Trump for his MBS/Saudi love statement:

Javad Zarif

Mr. Trump bizarrely devotes the FIRST paragraph of his shameful statement on Saudi atrocities to accuse IRAN of every sort of malfeasance he can think of. Perhaps we’re also responsible for the California fires, because we didn’t help rake the forests— just like the Finns do?
 

bver_hunter

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How Saudi Arabia could reward Trump's support on the Khashoggi crisis
Donald Trump said this week that Washington stands with Saudi Arabia in the wake of journalist Jamal Khashoggi's murder.
Saudi Arabia could scale back its war in Yemen or its blockade of Qatar in exchange for Washington's loyalty, according to analysts.
Riyadh may want to "show some good faith to the U.S. and ... retain the high level of strategic support that it has from the White House," said Emily Hawthorne of Stratfor.

Saudi Arabia has the staunch support of U.S. President Donald Trump following the killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, and the oil-rich kingdom may make concessions to its American ally in return.

Political analysts say Saudi Arabia's King Salman and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman may scale back the war in Yemenand the blockade of Qatar

Such moves would allow Saudi Arabia "to show some good faith to the U.S. and to retain the high level of strategic support that it has from the White House," Emily Hawthorne, Middle East and North Africa analyst at think tank Stratfor, told CNBC.

Saudi officials did not respond to a CNBC inquiry about whether they would change their Yemen or Qatar policies.

In April, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo told officials in Riyadh to end its land, maritime and air blockade against Qatar. Saudi Arabia — along with Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates and Egypt — severed ties with Qatar last year, accusing it of supporting terrorism. Qatar denies that it supports terrorism.

Last month, the U.S. increased its calls for a cease-fire in Yemen, where Houthi rebels, backed by Iran, have been fighting a Saudi-led coalition that supports the Yemeni government.

Trump's support for Riyadh

In a lengthy statement on Tuesday, Trump said the United States stands with Saudi Arabia in the wake of journalist Khashoggi's death. The Washington Post columnist and critic of the Saudi royal family was killed at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul last month.

The CIA has determined that the Saudi crown prince ordered Khashoggi's assassination, according to Friday reports from NBC News and the Washington Post. Saudi Arabia rejects those claims.

Trump, on Tuesday, said the CIA had "nothing definitive" on the crown prince's involvement. He claimed that a "very full report" about the U.S. investigation would arrive, though he provided no timeframe for such a report.

The only punitive measure Washington has taken is the sanctioning of 17 Saudi officials for their role in the killing.

Faced with an international uproar over its alleged role in Khashoggi's death, Riyadh will now take care to protect its relations with the West, according to Ayham Kamel, head of Eurasia Group's Middle East and North Africa research team.

"The U.S. administration for months has been critical of the dispute among the Gulf allies, but it has been unable to incentivize Saudi Arabia to shift its stance," the analyst wrote in a recent note.

Saudi leadership "is not interested in adopting any policies that could cause relations with the West to implode," so Riyadh is now likely to ease tensions with Doha and de-escalate the Yemen war in the coming months, Kamel continued.

Speaking to CNBC on Wednesday, Saudi Arabia's Foreign Minister Adel al-Jubeir said his country seeks an end to the hostilities in Yemen and expressed hope for Houthi forces to negotiate a solution at upcoming peace talks in Sweden.

"The political solution was available from day one, but the Houthis refused to take it," al-Jubeir told CNBC's Hadley Gamble on Wednesday.

"Saudi Arabia will continue its foreign policy of trying to bring peace and stability to the region, and trying to push back against extremism and terrorism, against Iran's nefarious and malign and aggressive policies," al-Jubeir said.

He rejected reports suggesting a change in the kingdom's line of succession.

Regarding Khashoggi, al-Jubeir protested that Riyadh was declared guilty by people without a full assessment of the facts.

Richard Murphy, formerly U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia and U.S. assistant secretary of state for Near Eastern and South Asian Affairs, told CNBC that Trump should take advantage of his new sway over Riyadh to make foreign policy gains.

For instance, Murphy said, Trump could pressure Riyadh to get a cease-fire in Yemen while withholding American arms and intelligence assistance for the fighting there.

Regarding Trump's pick for the next U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia, John Abizaid, Murphy expressed confidence in Abizaid's ability to deal with the kingdom at such a sensitive time.

The United States has long relied on Riyadh to counter Iran in the Middle East and to combat terrorism in the region.

It has also counted on Saudi Arabia to restrain oil prices and to purchase U.S.-made weapons. Saudi Arabia is OPEC's biggest oil producer and the top buyer of U.S. weaponry.

The United States and Saudi Arabia have dealt with serious obstacles in their history, such as the fact that most of the hijackers in the Sept. 11, 2001 terror attacks were Saudis. Even then, Washington imposed no sanctions on Saudi officials.

The Khashoggi crisis is "probably the toughest issue that they're going to have to get past," Hawthorne said. "The White House isn't looking for partners that are the pinnacle of human rights and press freedom ... they are looking for partners that can help them achieve other strategic objectives."

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/22/sau...ck-trumps-support-after-khashoggi-murder.html

Trump says he is putting "America First" with his stand on the Khashoggi Murder...Really?? He is putting Saudi Arabia interests first.
"Make Saudi Arabia Great Again". Wonder how many Trumptard Cult Followers will buy clothing / Hats with that logo.
Putin gets away with killings on foreign soil, and now Saudi Arabia has done the same. This puppet in the Whitehouse is really being used as a pawn, in order to further his business interests in those countries!!.
 

mandrill

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The problem is that Trump is such an asslicker, Saudi realizes that Prince MBS could kill an American citizen in broad daylight on the streets of New York with 100's of witnesses and Trump would still suck his cock and say he didn't do it and tell us what a great guy he is.

As long as Trump is president, MBS is totally out of control. He can bomb Yemeni kids, behead women and arrange assassinations around the world with the knowledge that the USA is going to clean up after him and cover his ass.
 

danmand

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Nov 28, 2003
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The problem is that Trump is such an asslicker, Saudi realizes that Prince MBS could kill an American citizen in broad daylight on the streets of New York with 100's of witnesses and Trump would still suck his cock and say he didn't do it and tell us what a great guy he is.

As long as Trump is president, MBS is totally out of control. He can bomb Yemeni kids, behead women and arrange assassinations around the world with the knowledge that the USA is going to clean up after him and cover his ass.
The only positive thing one can say about Trump's treatment of Saudi Arabia is that he is less hypocritical.

Other presidents would have hummed and huffed, talked about human rights and democracy, and then they essentially would have taken the same actions as Trump (i.e. none).

USA and UK have actively taken part in the war on Yemen.
 

Bud Plug

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Which problems does this episode highlight:

a) The CIA are incapable of proving foul play that a nation with the (evil) "sophistication" of SA doesn't want them to be able to uncover?

b) The CIA found better proof than they are prepared to disclose to the public (or to the President), because they favor continued good relations between the US and SA?

c) There are forces in American politics which favor a distancing of relations with SA, regardless of what concrete proof can be produced to justify it?

d) Turkey strongly desires a distancing of the relationship between the US and SA?

d) All of the above?
 

Frankfooter

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Al J has a good article on Saudi foreign policy in the Middle East and how its failing.

Why Saudi Arabia's foreign policy is failing
Mohammed bin Salman has transformed Saudi Arabia's traditionally tactical diplomacy to a reckless mess.
Marwan Kabalan

The brutal murder of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi at Saudi Arabia's consulate in Istanbul on October 2 and the spectacular mismanagement of the crisis that ensued show how reckless and ill-advised the kingdom's foreign policy has become under Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.

This is the latest in a series of foreign policy blunders Saudi Arabia has suffered under the watch of the 33-year-old crown prince. Other prominent examples include the failed blockade of Qatar, the house arrest of Lebanese Prime Minister Saad al-Hariri, the diplomatic row with Canada over human rights issues and the disastrous war in Yemen.

One could argue that Prince Mohammed, also known as MBS, has had to pursue a more assertive foreign policy because of the rise of Iranian influence in the Middle East, which threatens the security and stability of Saudi Arabia. Yet, there is a clear distinction to be made between "assertive" and "reckless". With his grave foreign policy miscalculations, MBS has not only moved away from the House of Saud's traditional tactical diplomacy, but has also effectively pushed his country towards the precipice of political instability.

'Backseat' diplomacy
In the first decades of the Cold War, a revolutionary wave swept through the Middle East. In 1952, King Farouk of Egypt, the last monarch of Mohammad Ali's dynasty which had ruled Egypt since 1805, was overthrown. In 1958, the Hashemite family was brought down by leftist and nationalist forces in Iraq. In 1962, army officers removed Zaydi Imam Mohammad al-Badr, plunging Yemen into a seven-year civil war which ended with the establishment of the republic. And in 1979, the monarchy of Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi was toppled and replaced by an Islamic republic led by Shia clerics.

Amid this upheaval, the Saudi monarchy managed to survive, mainly because of its calculative approach to foreign affairs, employing a quiet but remarkably effective diplomacy in dealing with external threats and challenges.

At the beginning of the Cold War, Riyadh took a backseat in most regional conflicts, leaving the rowdy revolutionaries of the Arab world (Egypt, Iraq and Syria) to take the lead. On Palestine, for example, the Saudis decided to keep a low profile. Although Riyadh backed the war efforts of the so-called "ring states" - the Arab countries surrounding Israel - it always refrained from getting involved in a direct military confrontation with the Zionist state. When it decided to get involved - for example by leading the 1973 oil embargo - it always did so through soft or economic power.

Even when it was forced to fight against regional rivals, Saudi Arabia avoided direct conflict and opted for proxy wars. In the 1960s, it drew the regime of Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser, an archenemy for the Saudi ruling family, into a proxy conflict in Yemen. Abdel Nasser sent a large chunk of his army to support the revolutionary effort against Imam Mohammad al-Badr, who was backed by Saudi Arabia. But in doing so, the Egyptian president weakened his army which contributed to its defeat in the 1967 war against Israel and his subsequent political demise. The Egyptian leader died along with his pan-Arab dream three years later.

Using more or less the same tactics, the House of Saud achieved exactly the same results with another revolutionary leader that threatened its rule: Grand Ayatollah Khomeini. Riyadh avoided direct confrontation with Tehran, which was seeking to export the revolution and depose the conservative Arab Gulf regimes, and instead, encouraged and supported Iraq in the eight-year Iran-Iraq war (1980-1988). This effectively contained the Iranian revolution and the idea of exporting it to the rest of the Middle East withered away with the death of Ayatollah Khomeini in 1989.

Throughout the Cold War, Saudi Arabia also played a quiet albeit important role in the international arena, contributing to the eventual collapse of the Soviet Union. In the 1980s, it joined Pakistan and the United States in their efforts to support armed groups resisting the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, funding most of the CIA programmes to arm and train the Mujahideen. The House of Saud also helped plunge oil prices in the second half of the 1980s, bringing the oil-dependent Soviet economy to its knees.

And when the threat came to its borders in August 1990 with Saddam Hussein's decision to invade Kuwait, then also Riyadh opted for a circumvent solution. It requested the help of the US which promptly dispatched a coalition force to expel the Iraqi army from Kuwait and prevent an invasion of Saudi Arabia.

Resurgent Iran
Thus throughout the second half of the 20th century, Saudi Arabia won most of its battles without having to fire a shot. But the situation over the past few years changed dramatically in the Middle East. The US invasion of Afghanistan in 2001 and Iraq in 2003 eliminated two of Iran's key regional foes, resuscitating its ambitions for regional hegemony.

The breakout of the Arab Spring in 2011 brought down and undermined a number of dictatorial regimes which Saudi Arabia viewed as the pillars of "stability" in the region. Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak was toppled in February of that year, which sent shockwaves across the Middle East. To try to avoid the same fate, Bashar al-Assad unleashed a violent wave of repression onto the Syrian population, eventually plunging the country into a bloody civil war.

For the first time in its recent history, Saudi Arabia found itself completely exposed, with no one to fall back on but itself. To add insult to injury, the Obama administration showed little sensitivity towards Saudi concerns as it sought rapprochement with Iran, leaving Riyadh deeply worried about its security. As the feeling of insecurity in the House of Saud grew, "backseat" diplomacy gave way to a more assertive foreign policy; the tactics, however, remained more or less the same: confrontation by proxy.

Anxious to prevent Iran from taking advantage of this fluid situation, Saudi Arabia - along with the United Arab Emirates - decided to fill in the power vacuum left by a retreating US and the collapse of the Arab heavyweights.

In March 2011, Saudi troops were sent to Bahrain to quash the protest movement. In June 2013, Riyadh supported the military coup in Egypt that overthrew the government of the Muslim Brotherhood. It funnelled billions of dollars in support of Egypt's military junta as it mercilessly cracked down on the Islamist movement.

In Syria, Saudi Arabia put a lot of effort into undermining the regime of Bashar al-Assad, both militarily and diplomatically. Riyadh financed the purchase of infantry weapons and funnelled millions of dollars to anti-regime fighters in a drive to break the bloody stalemate that had allowed Assad to cling to power.

Yet, it was the Houthis' takeover of the Yemeni capital Sanaa in September 2014, that shook Saudi Arabia to the core. The death of King Abdullah and the ascendance to the throne of King Salman paved the way for the young and ambitious MBS to lead his country into its first direct military conflict with another country.

Initially, the decision to go to war in Yemen was hailed as a brave and timely intervention to prevent the Houthis from taking complete control of Yemen and hence contributing to Iran's rising regional influence. However, as the war dragged on with thousands of civilians getting killed, and hospitals and schools getting bombed, it became another foreign policy fiasco for Saudi Arabia.

A reckless leader
MBS did not stop with the invasion of Yemen. His arrogance and belief that money can buy everything, and his utter ignorance of regional and international realities got Saudi Arabia into deep trouble with each of his aggressive foreign policy decisions.

Instead of trying to build a unified front against the Saudi archenemy, Iran, and direct Saudi resources to that end, MBS found himself fighting on almost every possible front. Right now, he is in conflict with Turkey and its Sunni allies, including Qatar; and with Iran, and its Shia allies in Iraq, Syria, Yemen and Lebanon.

Not only has MBS created more enemies than he can handle, but he has also chosen the wrong allies. He has embarked on a dangerous path of normalisation with Israel, believing that it would pay back in the long run. But with this decision, he risks losing the hearts and minds of the Arab people to Turkey and Iran, both of which have positioned themselves as champions of the Palestinian cause.

More importantly, he risks losing support in his own country and contributing to the rise of more radical forces, as some Saudis come to see their country fighting the wrong "enemies" and allying with the wrong "friends".

If Mohammed bin Salman continues down this path, he is likely to bring about not only his own political demise, but that of the House of Saud as well.
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/saudi-arabia-foreign-policy-failing-181120113409460.html
 
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