Sobering Thoughts on Section 33

Ref · Sep 15, 2018

As entertaining and fun the past few weeks have been watching the two governments battle their way through the downsizing efforts, I did have a couple of sobering thoughts throughout this process.

Sobering Thought # 1: What if Christine Elliot had won the nomination to the PC party? I would have to say that the new PC government would not have gone down this road to reduce Toronto city council. As a matter of fact, I don’t even think it would have been brought up during her term as Premier.

Sobering Thought # 2: Ford and Horwath are the exact same. They are both obese, loud mouth bullies who really shouldn’t be in politics. If they were to switch parties, their behaviors would be the exact same. These two dip-shits represent the face of Ontario politics? As a province we can do better than that.

Sobering Thought # 3: What if the Liberal or NDP party had introduced Bill 5 (in a timely fashion)? Say the PC’s were the ones to defend keeping council at 45 seats. Would the posters in this forum change their minds to support the party or would they fight for the rights of keeping the Toronto council whole? Do you think that the posters in this forum sacrifice their personal opinion/decision because of the political party they support? No matter which way I lean (and I have switched over the years), I find that it is impossible for any one party that can represent my views 100% of the time. To me, I get the feeling that people have dug in their heels so deep that they have sacrificed their personal values to save face.

Well, time for a drink, these sober thoughts are messing up my mind (if I still have one).

LT56 · Sep 15, 2018

So being thought #3: YES. If a Liberal govt was doing this the Alt Right terbites would be having a meltdown.

JohnLarue · Sep 15, 2018

Ref said:
What if the Liberal or NDP party had introduced Bill 5 (in a timely fashion)? Say the PC’s were the ones to defend keeping council at 45 seats.

It would not happen like that. The PCs would applaud bill 5 as it would align with their long standing principle of financially responsible governing
Why would the PCs fight a cost savings move?

bver_hunter · Sep 15, 2018

LT56 said:
So being thought #3: YES. If a Liberal govt was doing this the Alt Right terbites would be having a meltdown.

When the Former Ontario Conservative Premier Bill Davis categorically states that Ford was wrong to use notwithstanding clause, we know that this was a very stupid act by this reckless Premier who does not even have a University Degree of any sorts. He probably has a Cocaine Street Dealer's Degree!!

Anyway this is what Bill Davis mentioned:

“Making the Charter a central part of our Constitution, Canada’s basic law, was a deliberate and focused decision by the prime minister and premiers,” Ontario’s 18th premier explained over the phone yesterday.

“The sole purpose of the notwithstanding clause was only for those exceptionally rare circumstances when a province wanted to bring in a specific benefit or program provision for a part of their population — people of a certain age, for example — that might have seemed discriminatory under the Charter.

“The notwithstanding provision has, understandably, rarely been used, because of the primacy of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms for all Canadians. That it might now be used regularly to assert the dominance of any government or elected politician over the rule of law or the legitimate jurisdiction of our courts of law was never anticipated or agreed to.”

As a rule, former Progressive Conservative premier Bill Davis has avoided weighing in on controversial issues since he retired from public life in 1985. He is still interested in political developments but has been content to wield whatever influence he may have almost entirely behind the scenes.

Still, of the 11 first ministers who, 37 years ago, hammered out that historic constitutional compromise, only three are still alive. The 89-year-old Davis is one of them — and he knows what his colleagues had in mind when they created the notwithstanding clause all those years ago.

So in other words we should believe Bill Davis over Dumb DOFO and the rest of his gang of politicians:

https://tvo.org/blog/current-affair...avis-ford-wrong-to-use-notwithstanding-clause

Darts · Sep 15, 2018

Apparently, the Trudeau cabinet has the power to overturn Premier Ford's use of the notwithstanding clause. If they do so, they will lose Quebec and most of Ontario in the next federal in 2019.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-constitution-notwithstanding-factsheet-ford-1.4817751

Ford will not suffer electorally because I think the PC's have only one seat in Toronto. Even if they lose that one seat, they will still have a majority government.

Conil · Sep 15, 2018

Darts said:
Apparently, the Trudeau cabinet has the power to overturn Premier Ford's use of the notwithstanding clause. If they do so, they will lose Quebec and most of Ontario in the next federal in 2019.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-constitution-notwithstanding-factsheet-ford-1.4817751

Trudeau has the power to do it, but he won't. He's a hypocrite. Trudeau may lose lots of liberal votes anyways in Quebec to Bernier if this party really forms.

mandrill · Sep 15, 2018

Conil said:
Trudeau has the power to do it, but he won't. He's a hypocrite. Trudeau may lose lots of liberal votes anyways in Quebec to Bernier if this party really forms.

I doubt Trudeau will use the "disallow" provision over this crap. It generates yet another constitutional crisis on top of the one that Ford is creating. Normal constitutional theory is that the provinces are co equal to the feds within their respective areas of jurisdiction. Using the "disallow" provision wrecks this understanding and creates more uncertainty. The subject matter of Ford's legislation is trivial - rearranging the composition of a municipal council. It's Ford's methods that are creating the crisis.

Trudeau is going to walk away and let Ford take the fallout from this. Ford is going to get major backlash over this from every reputable legal and political pundit in Canada. He will either back off doing it ever again or he will get wacked with more and more negative press. Ford is not going to do well as premier in any event, to judge by his first couple of disastrous months. He will make more and more mistakes. He appears incapable of NOT making mistakes. This is going to be a 1 term government and the Libs will be back.

As far as Bernier?.... He did really well at the CPC convention, didn't he? I think that pretty much sets the tone for him. A right wing Tory in Quebec simply splits the Tory vote in that province 3-ways with the BQ sucking up their share.

mandrill · Sep 15, 2018

Darts said:
Apparently, the Trudeau cabinet has the power to overturn Premier Ford's use of the notwithstanding clause. If they do so, they will lose Quebec and most of Ontario in the next federal in 2019.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-constitution-notwithstanding-factsheet-ford-1.4817751

Ford will not suffer electorally because I think the PC's have only one seat in Toronto. Even if they lose that one seat, they will still have a majority government.

You're assuming that the rest of the province isn't paying attention to what Ford is doing. As mentioned, no one gives a fuck in a general sense how many municipal councilors sit in Toronto. Many give a fuck about trying to interrupt an election which is already underway and over-riding a judicial ruling with the notwithstanding clause. Those are significant acts and dumb acts. And people are sitting up and taking notice.

mandrill · Sep 15, 2018

JohnLarue said:
It would not happen like that. The PCs would applaud bill 5 as it would align with their long standing principle of financially responsible governing
Why would the PCs fight a cost savings move?

Sure, John. The Tories would be on their little podium screaming about Charter rights and democratic elections at the top of their little lungs. And they would be correct to do so.

Ready. Shoot. Aim, buddy. You're wrong again.

Boober69 · Sep 15, 2018

Ref said:
As entertaining and fun the past few weeks have been watching the two governments battle their way through the downsizing efforts, I did have a couple of sobering thoughts throughout this process.

Sobering Thought # 1: What if Christine Elliot had won the nomination to the PC party? I would have to say that the new PC government would not have gone down this road to reduce Toronto city council. As a matter of fact, I donÂ’t even think it would have been brought up during her term as Premier.

Sobering Thought # 2: Ford and Horwath are the exact same. They are both obese, loud mouth bullies who really shouldnÂ’t be in politics. If they were to switch parties, their behaviors would be the exact same. These two dip-shits represent the face of Ontario politics? As a province we can do better than that.

Sobering Thought # 3: What if the Liberal or NDP party had introduced Bill 5 (in a timely fashion)? Say the PCÂ’s were the ones to defend keeping council at 45 seats. Would the posters in this forum change their minds to support the party or would they fight for the rights of keeping the Toronto council whole? Do you think that the posters in this forum sacrifice their personal opinion/decision because of the political party they support? No matter which way I lean (and I have switched over the years), I find that it is impossible for any one party that can represent my views 100% of the time. To me, I get the feeling that people have dug in their heels so deep that they have sacrificed their personal values to save face.

Well, time for a drink, these sober thoughts are messing up my mind (if I still have one).

Those are a lot of what ifs.

In keeping with the theme here are a few more:

What if the provincial Liberals had not bankrupted this province over the past 15 years by creating a $400 billion debt that our grandchildren will still not be able to pay off?

What if Toronto city council was not dysfunctional for the past 30 years?

What if the Liberal party still existed in the province?

What if CO2 emissions actually caused climate change?

What if Justin Trudeau ran out of costumes to wear when visiting other countries?

What if Toronto city council ran out of streets to put bike lanes on?

PornAddict · Sep 15, 2018

LT56 said:
So being thought #3: YES. If a Liberal govt was doing this the Alt Right terbites would be having a meltdown.

Bullshit! Less governments is always good, because they are scum and they get paid too much for doing nothing!!

Time to get rid of red tape and put term limits!!

PornAddict · Sep 15, 2018

bver_hunter said:
When the Former Ontario Conservative Premier Bill Davis categorically states that Ford was wrong to use notwithstanding clause, we know that this was a very stupid act by this reckless Premier who does not even have a University Degree of any sorts. He probably has a Cocaine Street Dealer's Degree!!

Anyway this is what Bill Davis mentioned:

“Making the Charter a central part of our Constitution, Canada’s basic law, was a deliberate and focused decision by the prime minister and premiers,” Ontario’s 18th premier explained over the phone yesterday.

“The sole purpose of the notwithstanding clause was only for those exceptionally rare circumstances when a province wanted to bring in a specific benefit or program provision for a part of their population — people of a certain age, for example — that might have seemed discriminatory under the Charter.

“The notwithstanding provision has, understandably, rarely been used, because of the primacy of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms for all Canadians. That it might now be used regularly to assert the dominance of any government or elected politician over the rule of law or the legitimate jurisdiction of our courts of law was never anticipated or agreed to.”

As a rule, former Progressive Conservative premier Bill Davis has avoided weighing in on controversial issues since he retired from public life in 1985. He is still interested in political developments but has been content to wield whatever influence he may have almost entirely behind the scenes.

Still, of the 11 first ministers who, 37 years ago, hammered out that historic constitutional compromise, only three are still alive. The 89-year-old Davis is one of them — and he knows what his colleagues had in mind when they created the notwithstanding clause all those years ago.

So in other words we should believe Bill Davis over Dumb DOFO and the rest of his gang of politicians:

https://tvo.org/blog/current-affair...avis-ford-wrong-to-use-notwithstanding-clause

Who give a shit of what former premier Bill Davis says& thinks. He is an old dinosaur that should be put to pasture. The law is there for anyone to use or applied to!! Plus the nonwithstanding have a time limit of 5 year! If the voter don't like the use of the nonwithstanding clause they can exercise their vote in 4 year when come election time for Ontario! Otherwise zipper your mouth and just go to the corners and sulk & cry!! Time for you to accept the conservatives have the right to govern plus conservative have suffered for so long not able to govern Ontario!

PS Using the nonwithstanding clause is the greatest day for Ontario...finally we can stop the political correctness and let government make laws not Judge make law!,

explorerzip · Sep 15, 2018

I find it a waste of time to ask hypothetical questions like this. There's no way of knowing how a particular leader or party would do things. We could be easily be in the exact same position if an entirely group of people were in government.

You are right that people dig in their heels like you say as if loyalty to one party will gain them anything and if they owe you.

So much easier to rage against the machine instead of using those last few brain cells.

explorerzip · Sep 15, 2018

PornAddict said:
Bullshit! Less governments is always good, because they are scum and they get paid too much for doing nothing!!

Time to get rid of red tape and put term limits!!

Why wait until we eliminate government in this province? You can move to Monaco, which has effectively 0% tax: no personal income tax, low corporate taxes, no capital gains, taxes on dividends, and best of all: no property taxes. It's easy: just start a business and you can move there. The weather is beautiful most of the year, and plenty of beautiful people around.

Shit, the residents pay over 19% VAT on all goods and services. No free lunch as they say.

Don't have enough money or not smart enough to start a business?! Guess you're stuck with us losers.

bver_hunter · Sep 15, 2018

PornAddict said:
Who give a shit of what former premier Bill Davis says& thinks. He is an old dinosaur that should be put to pasture. The law is there for anyone to use or applied to!! Plus the nonwithstanding have a time limit of 5 year! If the voter don't like the use of the nonwithstanding clause they can exercise their vote in 4 year when come election time for Ontario! Otherwise zipper your mouth and just go to the corners and sulk & cry!! Time for you to accept the conservatives have the right to govern plus conservative have suffered for so long not able to govern Ontario!

PS Using the nonwithstanding clause is the greatest day for Ontario...finally we can stop the political correctness and let government make laws not Judge make law!,

Zipper my mouth?? Then listen to your nonsense!! You were the one that sulked and cried all the time for over a decade and now you want others to follow the same path as you? Bill Davis knows what he is talking about because he was involved with drafting that piece of legislation and for very precise reasons. Will rather trust him over that Dumb DOFO who is only good at street peddling of cocaine. We will see the chaos that will play out gif and once it gets implemented. Then all you right wingers will be the first to complain when stuff like potholes etc are not fixed on time.

A Judge does not make the Laws, silly!! He is the one to interpret it, and make sure that the Laws are followed. Wow, no wonder you love the Dumb DOFO guy!!

Polaris · Sep 15, 2018

Ref said:
Sobering Thought # 1: What if Christine Elliot had won the nomination to the PC party?

Sobering Thought # 2: Ford and Horwath are the exact same.

Sobering Thought # 3: What if the Liberal or NDP party had introduced Bill 5 (in a timely fashion)?

Who is Christine Elliot. I kept hearing the name but got no idea who she is. Is she John Tory's sister. John Tory is kind of useless.

Ford and Horwath are not the same. One is a reactionary, other a dogmatic leftist. At least his Ford-ness has some experience running an organization connected with the real world. Do we want to hear about unions grievances indefinitely and identity politics victimhood hysterics forever and ever?

If the Liberal or NDP party cut Toronto City Hall in half, that would be absolutely wonderful. Too bad they did not. Wynne could have won the election if she did that.

izza:

basketcase · Sep 16, 2018

Ref said:
...
Sobering Thought # 3: What if the Liberal or NDP party had introduced Bill 5 (in a timely fashion)? Say the PC’s were the ones to defend keeping council at 45 seats. Would the posters in this forum change their minds to support the party or would they fight for the rights of keeping the Toronto council whole? ....

From my point of view, the change in numbers isn't the core of my complaint, it is the way it was done without consultation and at the start of the campaigns. That and the obvious personal vendetta that seems to have driven the bill.

basketcase · Sep 16, 2018

PornAddict said:
Bullshit! Less governments is always good,...

But I don't see Ford cutting the numbers of his government.

Anbarandy · Sep 16, 2018

basketcase said:
But I don't see Ford cutting the numbers of his government.

He is adding to the numbers, as in $$$$ wasted in numerous court cases brought upon and by his Royal Lowness aka The Pretzel Premier.

essguy_ · Sep 16, 2018

Sobering thought #4: Ford is a fucking moron. Think about it. Father was a Provincial MP who started a successful label business. Neither Ford Bro goes into Provincial politics or tries a run Federally - they find a home in the minor leagues of municipal. Doug doesn’t have success running Deco Labels either. The only reason he won the OPC leadership is because he promised to eliminate the sex Ed program. Period. Full stop.

So we have a guy who had every advantage in the world whose previous success prior to being parachuted in as leader by the Socons was as a high school hash dealer. He won an election even a Tim Hudak couldn’t have lost and he now thinks he’s the second coming of Mike Harris (anther over-rated moron who originally became leader because nobody else wanted the job).

Sobering Thoughts on Section 33

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