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Religious Intolerance

Ilick

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I was with the boys drinking and the topic of homosexuality and sex education came up. Some guys, perhaps wisely, said nothing. Some guys like myself were in the corner of being very tolerant, regardless of our religion and how we were raised. Then there's the couple of guys that use their religion to justify their view of intolerance. They don't like the new curriculum, they believe homosexuality is a choice, they think it's against God (they were Christians), etc. The bible came up a few times as a source for how to live.

How do you handle these guys? We argued back and forth. I used the usual arguments - religions don't preach hate, what if your kid was a homosexual, how can you say homosexuality is a sin whereas other things that are far worse are ok, etc. but they were pretty much set in their ways. And these are guys that have lived in Canada most of their lives. The sad part is it's clear that discrimination, homophobia, and hate in general will continue since they are set in their ways and are adamant about teaching similar views to their children. I count myself lucky to have grown out of that upbringing because I grew up thinking similar thoughts because of my parents and schooling.

Those of us in favor also brought up bullying. By teaching your child that the kid who has two mommies or daddies is apart of something that is wrong, your kid likely will hate that kid and maybe that grows to bullying. So I said you can't teach them that it's wrong, especially at a young age.

What do you think?
 

Smallcock

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Jun 5, 2009
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Growing up I could never understand why some fellows expressed such disdain for homosexuals and wanted to hurt them physically, and I don't even think many of these guys were religious. Very sad.

As for religion in general... it is the past and the future. We are importing deeply religious folks en masse. The problems you speak of will only get worse.
 

t.o.leafs.fan

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Jul 19, 2006
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I can't help you...I literally have no friends/acquaintances who are religious (even a little bit).
 

Jasmine Raine

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Jul 28, 2014
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I can't help you...I literally have no friends/acquaintances who are religious (even a little bit).
Ya me either. Or the ones that I do have, have been told that their religion has no place in our friendship. If they can't accept that, I move on.
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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Having had gay friends, relatives and colleagues —open and closeted — since at least puberty sixty some years back, I've always thought Queen Victoria's response to the scandal and trial of Oscar Wilde summed up what should be everyone's attitude. If someone is making unwelcome advances to you, you have every reason to object and have them stop, but that is a matter of sexual conduct in general, and whether its a man or woman doing it, should make no difference. Otherwise, what consenting adults do between each other is no business but theirs. No matter what anyone's personal religion may tell them their god may think of it.

Or as Queen Victoria put it, "I do not see why it should be any concern of the law or of others, as long as they do not do it in the public road where it would frighten the horses."
 

kkelso

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Apr 27, 2003
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Having had gay friends, relatives and colleagues —open and closeted — since at least puberty sixty some years back, I've always thought Queen Victoria's response to the scandal and trial of Oscar Wilde summed up what should be everyone's attitude. If someone is making unwelcome advances to you, you have every reason to object and have them stop, but that is a matter of sexual conduct in general, and whether its a man or woman doing it, should make no difference. Otherwise, what consenting adults do between each other is no business but theirs. No matter what anyone's personal religion may tell them their god may think of it.

Or as Queen Victoria put it, "I do not see why it should be any concern of the law or of others, as long as they do not do it in the public road where it would frighten the horses."
Well put.
 

Bud Plug

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Aug 17, 2001
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I was with the boys drinking and the topic of homosexuality and sex education came up. Some guys, perhaps wisely, said nothing. Some guys like myself were in the corner of being very tolerant, regardless of our religion and how we were raised. Then there's the couple of guys that use their religion to justify their view of intolerance. They don't like the new curriculum, they believe homosexuality is a choice, they think it's against God (they were Christians), etc. The bible came up a few times as a source for how to live.

How do you handle these guys? We argued back and forth. I used the usual arguments - religions don't preach hate, what if your kid was a homosexual, how can you say homosexuality is a sin whereas other things that are far worse are ok, etc. but they were pretty much set in their ways. And these are guys that have lived in Canada most of their lives. The sad part is it's clear that discrimination, homophobia, and hate in general will continue since they are set in their ways and are adamant about teaching similar views to their children. I count myself lucky to have grown out of that upbringing because I grew up thinking similar thoughts because of my parents and schooling.

Those of us in favor also brought up bullying. By teaching your child that the kid who has two mommies or daddies is apart of something that is wrong, your kid likely will hate that kid and maybe that grows to bullying. So I said you can't teach them that it's wrong, especially at a young age.

What do you think?
Just as everyone must tolerate homosexuality as part of our society, as that tolerance is dictated by our constitution, so too must we all be tolerant of religious beliefs, even if those beliefs run contrary to tolerance of others.

What people think is not regulated by our laws. What they do is. It appears that you are facing the same challenge in accepting the rights of your religious friends as they are in accepting the rights of homosexuals.

I can see how your arguments to them would not have been persuasive:

a) "What if your kids were homosexual?" If you believe homosexuality is a sin, you'd find their behaviour to be sinful, regardless of whether they are your kids. A parent wouldn't abandon his/her belief that murder is a sin just because their child was a murderer.

b) "Religions don't preach hate". Religions DO preach DIVINE intolerance (at least in the absence of seeking forgiveness from the Divine). Religions are all about establishing hard and fast rules for acceptable vs. unacceptable behaviour. If you believe that your God didn't create anyone as a homosexual, and that it is the influence of the Devil (or ego, or [insert explanation of relevant religion]) that leads one to fall into the behaviour of homosexuality, how could you possibly expect a religion to "tolerate" such a thing?

c) The coining of the phrase "homophobia" was possibly the worst miscalculation that gay rights activists ever made. Hate/dislike/disapproval does not require fear, and these concepts are connected far less commonly than activists claim. Besides, if you really want to slow down a "bully", the worst possible tactic is to call him a coward. He's likely to want to prove otherwise by ramping up his bullying.

d) Disapproving of the activities of others is not the same as bullying, and does not necessarily lead to bullying.

Btw, since you mention Christian friends, and the group you hang out with are pretty diverse, were there Muslims in your group? Did they speak against homosexuality? Just curious, as the Qu'ran has the most explicitly negative things (at least as interpreted by a number of Muslim societies) to say about the consequences of homosexuality (at least when it involves two men. less clear about lesbianism) of the major religious scriptures.
 

onthebottom

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I have, in my family and circle of friends, very conservative, religious, and very liberal and non-religious, and everything in between. My most conservative and liberal family members are equally religious.

What I say is that your beliefs should inform how YOU live YOUR life and should have nothing to do with how others live theirs nor how government makes policy. That said, you should feel free to believe what you want to believe and act accordingly right up to the point where you impact someone else.
 

Smallcock

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Jun 5, 2009
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Ya me either. Or the ones that I do have, have been told that their religion has no place in our friendship. If they can't accept that, I move on.
I can't help you...I literally have no friends/acquaintances who are religious (even a little bit).
You must have very few immigrant friends while you live in a city that has a population that is 50% immigrants. Strange.
 

Bud Plug

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Aug 17, 2001
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I have, in my family and circle of friends, very conservative, religious, and very liberal and non-religious, and everything in between. My most conservative and liberal family members are equally religious.

What I say is that your beliefs should inform how YOU live YOUR life and should have nothing to do with how others live theirs nor how government makes policy. That said, you should feel free to believe what you want to believe and act accordingly right up to the point where you impact someone else.
I agree with what you say in principle. The problem is in the application. When the government's policy is to teach your children that they should see no sin in certain behaviour, yet you believe otherwise, how can you avoid getting involved with protesting public policy? I think most parents view "their life" as inclusive of the lives of their children.

A simpler solution is for governments to stop telling people how to think and focus instead on telling them what they may and may not do.
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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I agree with what you say in principle. The problem is in the application. When the government's policy is to teach your children that they should see no sin in certain behaviour, yet you believe otherwise, how can you avoid getting involved with protesting public policy? I think most parents view "their life" as inclusive of the lives of their children.

A simpler solution is for governments to stop telling people how to think and focus instead on telling them what they may and may not do.
You teach them to see sin, the curriculum teaches them not to see sin; they decide for themselves as children have always done since Caan and Abel. And you write to your MPP asking why there is no better sex-ed curriculum yet.

Whatever they believe they see, no one has any right in our society to act as if they were appointed and instructed by god to be anything but civil and to mind their own business. Which is indeed what our society and our government tells us we should do. Although perhaps not as often and as persuasively as they could.
 

Bud Plug

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You teach them to see sin, the curriculum teaches them not to see sin; they decide for themselves as children have always done since Caan and Abel. And you write to your MPP asking why there is no better sex-ed curriculum yet.

Whatever they believe they see, no one has any right in our society to act as if they were appointed and instructed by god to be anything but civil and to mind their own business. Which is indeed what our society and our government tells us we should do. Although perhaps not as often and as persuasively as they could.
I don't believe there was a governmental school curriculum in place for Cain and Abel.

Your post reveals a collectivist view of children that is not universally (and I would say, not widely) shared. Most parents feel they are both obliged and entitled to teach their children what is morally right and wrong.

Many children will, of course, as adults decide not to adhere to the teachings of their parents, and most children will encounter many other influences in their lives (friends, entertainment, news) that may persuade them that their parents beliefs are wrong. However, that is a product of the free exchange of ideas in a society where there is freedom of expression. But freedom of expression is a right for the people, not for the government, and the government is not a megaphone for people to express their personal views with more authority and more loudly than they would otherwise be heard.
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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I don't believe there was a governmental school curriculum in place for Cain and Abel.

Your post reveals a collectivist view of children that is not universally (and I would say, not widely) shared. Most parents feel they are both obliged and entitled to teach their children what is morally right and wrong.

Many children will, of course, as adults decide not to adhere to the teachings of their parents, and most children will encounter many other influences in their lives (friends, entertainment, news) that may persuade them that their parents beliefs are wrong. However, that is a product of the free exchange of ideas in a society where there is freedom of expression. But freedom of expression is a right for the people, not for the government, and the government is not a megaphone for people to express their personal views with more authority and more loudly than they would otherwise be heard.
Nor did I suggest Adam and Eve relied on one, or suggest parents shouldn't teach children morals. Better glasses maybe?

I liked how you elaborated on my premise that children grow to decide morals for themselves, and I'm always happy to hear free speech supported. But since you drifted away to other things, leaving the topic of religion behind, let me reinforce that no one's moral teaching should include any notion of believers forcing their morals on others, and that our society bases it's laws and assumptions of behaviour on freedom from such sectarian compulsion.

I really liked your phrase: "government is not a megaphone for people to express their personal views with more authority and more loudly than they would otherwise be heard". I look for ward to hearing how you will work to get that across to our new Premier who seems to believe the opposite.
 

Gntlmn

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Oct 27, 2002
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How to argue about religion? Watch a bunch of episodes on YouTube of "The Atheist Experience" where they take calls from people, the best being theists. You'll learn how to detect the fallacies of religious argument, even the ones who try to philosophize God, etc. into existence. Or, if you're into podcasts, I suggest "Dogma Debate" with David Smalley where it's more discussion than debate.
 

Boober69

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Feb 23, 2012
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Why are we so eager to have the government dictate what our kids are taught about sex?
This should be a parental responsibility.
Kids should be able to challenge what they are taught in school when it comes to sex education if it contradicts what they are taught at home.

In my experience, the people most upset about the stuff going on with the sex ed curriculum are the ones who never discuss sex with their kids and expect someone else to do it.

It all starts at home. If home is not a loving and nurturing environment, no schooling will help. Just look at all the gangbangers out there from dysfunctional families. What has school done for them?
 

onthebottom

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I agree with what you say in principle. The problem is in the application. When the government's policy is to teach your children that they should see no sin in certain behaviour, yet you believe otherwise, how can you avoid getting involved with protesting public policy? I think most parents view "their life" as inclusive of the lives of their children.

A simpler solution is for governments to stop telling people how to think and focus instead on telling them what they may and may not do.
The government should teach kids to recognize injustice not sin. Sin is a moral judgement that all are not going to agree with.

Sex education can certainly teach children that there are heterosexual and homosexual people, how their bodies work and where babies come from. That’s all fact based and simple biology. If you want to lay morals on top of the facts then do that at home with your own kids.
 

Ilick

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Btw, since you mention Christian friends, and the group you hang out with are pretty diverse, were there Muslims in your group? Did they speak against homosexuality? Just curious, as the Qu'ran has the most explicitly negative things (at least as interpreted by a number of Muslim societies) to say about the consequences of homosexuality (at least when it involves two men. less clear about lesbianism) of the major religious scriptures.
No Muslims. Just guys I play sports with drinking and talking. What kind of threw me is what came across as hatred. I totally believe one is entitled to their own belief system and you can teach your kids your version of right/wrong. The big problem is when you teach a child something is wrong, (1) you are making them close-minded and not giving them a chance to learn/decide for themselves and (2) I truly believe if somebody thinks something is wrong, they are more likely to ostracize it when they see others. If you are raised thinking being fat is bad, ugly, etc., are you going to like obese people? Are you more likely to make fun of them, either behind their back or to their face? I think yes.

It has taken me a long time to get over some of the things I was taught. Some was parents, some was friends/society, some was school. In school I was taught being gay was wrong. My parents told me it wasn't so thankfully I stuck with their message. But others have parents who re-inforce that. Now you don't necessarily like homosexuals. If you are gay, that's a big problem for you. Quite a few people have hurt themselves because their preference wasn't tolerated by their circle.
 

onthebottom

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No Muslims. Just guys I play sports with drinking and talking. What kind of threw me is what came across as hatred. I totally believe one is entitled to their own belief system and you can teach your kids your version of right/wrong. The big problem is when you teach a child something is wrong, (1) you are making them close-minded and not giving them a chance to learn/decide for themselves and (2) I truly believe if somebody thinks something is wrong, they are more likely to ostracize it when they see others. If you are raised thinking being fat is bad, ugly, etc., are you going to like obese people? Are you more likely to make fun of them, either behind their back or to their face? I think yes.

It has taken me a long time to get over some of the things I was taught. Some was parents, some was friends/society, some was school. In school I was taught being gay was wrong. My parents told me it wasn't so thankfully I stuck with their message. But others have parents who re-inforce that. Now you don't necessarily like homosexuals. If you are gay, that's a big problem for you. Quite a few people have hurt themselves because their preference wasn't tolerated by their circle.
The good news is that most kids at some point come to the conclusion that their parents are full of shit and make their own judgements.
 

HungSowel

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Alot of the hate is insecurity and false bravado due to testosterone. Also, I am sure there are alot of people that are ok with homosexuality but they need/want to keep up the appearance of being a religious person.
 

jcpro

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I wonder, however. If presented with a man's ass leads me to feeling nauseous, is that homophobia or a biological response?
 
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